edatoakrun
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Re: Repurposing of LEAF batteries in stationary applications

Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:28 am

Long paper analyzing economics of all options for utilizing used BEV batteries.

Can't say I entirely agree with some of their assumptions. They use a $10,000 cost estimate for a new Volt pack in their analysis, and also very high (IMO) remanufacturing cost estimates (p27).

I think I'll probably want to trade-in my 70-75% OE pack for a bargain remanufactured LEAF battery, myself.

I'm hoping for ~20 kWh available, for ~$2,000, in ~2020.


Remanufacturing, Repurposing, and Recycling of Post-Vehicle-Application Lithium-Ion Batteries
June 2014
MNTRC Report 12-20
Charles R. Standridge, Ph.D. and Lindsay Corneal, Ph.D.
Mineta National Transit Research Consortium
College of Business San José State University San José, CA 95192-0219
U.S. Department of Transportation
Research & Innovative Technology Admin.

Abstract

Lithium-ion batteries; Recycling; Repurposing; Remanufacturing; Forecasting
As lithium-ion batteries are an efficient energy storage mechanism, their use in vehicles is increasing to support electrification to meet increasing average mileage and decreasing greenhouse gas emission standards. Principles of environmentalism and sustainability suggest the development of processes for the remanufacturing, repurposing, and recycling of post-vehicle-application lithium-ion batteries. Proprietary commercial processes for remanufacturing for reuse in vehicles require safe battery testing that is supported by a newly developed workbench. Repurposing, with a focus on stationary energy storage applications and the development of battery management systems, is demonstrated. Recycling to recover the battery component materials using manual disassembly and acid leaching at relatively low temperatures and in short time periods is shown to be effective. A cost benefit-analysis shows that remanufacturing is profitable. Repurposing is profitable if the development cost is no more than $83/kWh to $114/kWh, depending on research and development expenses. Recycling, driven by environmental and sustainability principles, is not profitable in isolation. The cost of recycling must be borne by remanufacturing and repurposing. A forecasting model shows that the number of post-vehicle-application lithium-ion batteries will be sufficient to support remanufacturing, repurposing, and recycling.
...

http://transweb.sjsu.edu/PDFs/research/ ... ycling.pdf
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edatoakrun
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Re: Repurposing of LEAF batteries in stationary applications

Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:53 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfSnlXjzbCw#t=35

Video of Nissans HQ's current pilot project use of integrating PV with repurposed used LEAF batteries for charging EVs and other uses, and in home applications by ~2020, when use batteries are available in large numbers.

Of course, Nissan probably has only ~ a few hundred used LEAF batteries available to date.
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WetEV
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Re: Used Leaf Batteries Used for Large Scale Power Storage

Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:12 am

RegGuheert wrote:but it makes it clear that capacity loss does not slow down with degradation.


One data point, frankly, is worthless. Too many confounding problems. A cherry pick. First, the BMS's estimate of battery capacity isn't better than 2%, and that is similar to the difference in slope you are looking for. Second, conditions for the car vary a lot from month to month.

To get a better answer, need to take all the data, and try to adjust it for seasonality. I've tried this (quite a while back), but the result wasn't robust, so was still worthless.


What I'd like to repurpose a Leaf battery pack for is a sailboat. Charge from solar cells on deck and from turning the prop while sailing, use for power to get in and out of docks and moorings, lights and such. I'd love to fiddle around with something like this.

Batteries would stay near water temperature, which is usually cold in this area. Should have a very long lifetime. Probably longer than me.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

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RegGuheert
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Re: Used Leaf Batteries Used for Large Scale Power Storage

Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:06 am

WetEV wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:but it makes it clear that capacity loss does not slow down with degradation.
One data point, frankly, is worthless. Too many confounding problems. A cherry pick. First, the BMS's estimate of battery capacity isn't better than 2%, and that is similar to the difference in slope you are looking for. Second, conditions for the car vary a lot from month to month.

To get a better answer, need to take all the data, and try to adjust it for seasonality. I've tried this (quite a while back), but the result wasn't robust, so was still worthless.
In other words, you tried to refute what I wrote, but you have absolutely no evidence that overall degradation slows with degradation. On the other hand, this evidence that I provided is just confirmation of the research that exists on this topic.

Calendar losses dominate in most LEAFs and Li-ion calendar losses do NOT slow with degradation and actually accelerate in cases of rapid degradation. This has been shown in several research papers that have been presented in this forum and even in the graphs included in the wiki.

Cycling losses DO slow with degradation. So in the rare LEAF application in which cycling losses dominate, there may be a slowdown in degradation seen over time. But it will first need to overcome the effects of the owner needing to charge to a higher SOC and/or discharge to a lower SOC in order to take the same trips in the vehicle.

As I said, the data WAS "cherry-picked". I looked for and chose that case specifically because it eliminate any seasonality and other effects from the result. Another year-and-a-half have passed since I made that post and there still is NO indication that LEAF battery degradation slows down as the battery degrades (partially because it is hard to make any judgments before/after the P3227 update).

We will not know how LEAFs which are degrading at a slower rate behave long term for some time to come. Based upon the literature, it seems likely that calendar degradation will only progress at a linear rate for those vehicles. If the slowing degradation of cycling losses are not swamped out be the effects of cycling over a larger range of SOC, then there might be some very minor slowing, but probably not enough to write home about.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

edatoakrun
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Re: Used Leaf Batteries Used for Large Scale Power Storage

Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:20 am

RegGuheert wrote:
WetEV wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:but it makes it clear that capacity loss does not slow down with degradation.
One data point, frankly, is worthless...

Can you please place your off-topic comments on any one of the dozens of threads dedicated to the discussion on battery degradation, how many gids can dance on the head of a pin, etc?
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WetEV
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Re: Used Leaf Batteries Used for Large Scale Power Storage

Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:54 pm

RegGuheert wrote:As I said, the data WAS "cherry-picked". I looked for and chose that case specifically because it eliminate any seasonality and other effects from the result.


All other effects? Looked at the local weather? Parking in the sun/shade ratio? How about how many DCQCs were done? How much hill climbing and descending? Speed of driving? Really... all other effects?? Each and every one? Including the likely BMS errors?

Your evidence doesn't support your conclusion. Doesn't mean that your conclusion is wrong, just that a single "cherry pick" isn't a good way to support a conclusion.


RegGuheert wrote:We will not know how LEAFs which are degrading at a slower rate behave long term for some time to come.


I agree. We also don't know if different climates might see different degradation rate changes over time, and a lot of other things.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

edatoakrun
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Re: Repurposing of LEAF batteries in stationary applications

Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:27 am

Back on-topic and can we stay there?

edatoakrun, (page 1) IMO, Nissan is the only BEV manufacturer that seems to understand that the economic viability of BEVs is, to a considerable extent, dependent on making full use of the battery life cycle, with initial use in BEVs, then in stationary applications after they lose energy density....

This product announcement may indicate Nissan expects to have enough LEAF batteries for large-scale commercial repurposing in the not-too-distant future:

Jun. 15, 2015
Nissan and 4R Energy partner with Green Charge Networks for commercial energy storage featuring second-life electric vehicle batteries

Partnership enables commercial use of second-life lithium-ion vehicle batteries

SANTA CLARA, Calif. – Nissan Motor Company and Green Charge Networks, the largest provider of commercial energy storage, have joined forces to deploy second-life lithium-ion vehicle batteries for stationary commercial energy storage in the U.S. and international markets.

With more than 178,000 sales since its launch in late 2010, Nissan LEAF is the world's top-selling electric vehicle. As part of the company's commitment to sustainability and reducing greenhouse gas emissions, Nissan has conducted multiple research projects in Japan, the U.S. and Europe to use LEAF batteries outside the vehicle through 4R Energy, a joint-venture with Sumitomo Corp. formed in 2010.

In a new stationary storage application powered by Green Charge's intelligent software and Power Efficiency Agreement™, the second-life energy storage unit has a cost advantage over traditional units, opening up new markets where incentive programs are currently not offered.

Engineering teams from both companies have worked together for more than a year to ensure safety, reliability and performance of this offering for commercial customers.

The first combined storage unit will be installed at a Nissan facility this summer, where multiple Nissan LEAF batteries will be configured to offset peak electricity demand, creating savings while also benefiting the utility grid. Systems like this also can be paired with renewable energy sources such as wind or solar to further reduce a facility's environmental footprint and enhance energy savings.

"A lithium-ion battery from a Nissan LEAF still holds a great deal of value as energy storage, even after it is removed from the vehicle, so Nissan expects to be able to reuse a majority of LEAF battery packs in non-automotive applications," said Brad Smith, director of Nissan's 4R Energy business in the U.S. "Nissan looks forward to working with Green Charge Networks to get second-life vehicle batteries into the hands of customers who can realize benefits that include improved sustainability and lower energy costs."

"This partnership is extremely important to the distributed energy storage industry," said Vic Shao, CEO of Green Charge. "This partnership is ultimately about power efficiency – reducing our carbon footprint, stress on the grid and energy costs."

http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/ ... -batteries

More details, and reservations available here:

http://greencharge.net/solutions/#

Each (modular) unit has ~30 kWh available and weighs ~1600 lBS.

So, probably ~ two semi-retired EO(Vehicle)L LEAF packs used in each unit?

Total Round-trip Efficiency 88.4% min; 94% avg.

Anyone else find 94% efficiency impressive?

Shouldn't take a very large variations in kWh costs to make up that 6% loss, and other operating costs.

Operating Temperature -10 to 45 C

This similarity to the LEAF's battery temperature range, suggests that ATM may not be required, which could be a competitive advantage over many other products.

http://greencharge.net/wp-content/uploa ... asheet.pdf
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RegGuheert
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Re: Repurposing of LEAF batteries in stationary applications

Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:44 am

edatoakrun wrote:
Total Round-trip Efficiency 88.4% min; 94% avg.

Anyone else find 94% efficiency impressive?
Yes, that's impressive. In fact, it is a bit TOO impressive. I would expect a round-trip efficiency of around 93% efficiency using a high-voltage 3-phase inverter/charger with brand-new LEAF batteries. Since they are talking commercial, they could come close to this number. If they were to offer a product for single-phase 240VAC application, I would expect to see numbers around 90% overall round-trip efficiency.
edatoakrun wrote:Shouldn't take a very large variations in kWh costs to make up that 6% loss, and other operating costs.Let's not forget procurement costs, as well.
edatoakrun wrote:
Operating Temperature -10 to 45 C

This similarity to the LEAF's battery temperature range, suggests that ATM may not be required, which could be a competitive advantage over many other products.

http://greencharge.net/wp-content/uploa ... asheet.pdf
I think I would want to operate them around the middle of that temperature range. I wonder if there is any control over the SOC where the pack sits most of the time.

It seems like this produce might compete directly both with Tesla's PowerWall and Enphase's AC Battery. I wonder if the recycled product will have a purchase-price advantage but a drawback in terms of operating life.

I also wonder if Tesla PowerWall products will eventually become available which incorporate used Tesla automotive batteries. Perhaps not, since the chemistry in the PowerWall is NMC versus NCA used in the vehicles. And perhaps the vehicle batteries will simply last a LONG time.

One thing is for sure, Li-ion batteries are about to start to play in the home energy market.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

edatoakrun
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Re: Repurposing of LEAF batteries in stationary applications

Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:20 am

="RegGuheert"... I wonder if the recycled product will have a purchase-price advantage but a drawback in terms of operating life...

Nissan is currently offering to buy the EOVL batteries back from LEAF owners for only ~$ 60 per kWh (the $1,000 core charge on LEAF replacement battery pack sales) so the cost advantage over using repurposed batteries over new should be very large.

Of course, repurposed BEV batteries will not last as long as new batteries would, but since the battery, new or used, will be the most rapidly depreciating component in these devices, just as it is for every BEV, economics dictates a buyer should choose the lowest initial cost (repurposed) and just plan to replace the batteries when they are much less expensive, in the future.

="RegGuheert"... I also wonder if Tesla PowerWall products will eventually become available which incorporate used Tesla automotive batteries. Perhaps not, since the chemistry in the PowerWall is NMC versus NCA used in the vehicles. And perhaps the vehicle batteries will simply last a LONG time...

Tesla S batteries are designed to last for the life of the vehicle, and most may just be disposed of (along with the rest of the BEV) at the ~10 year (TSLA projected average) EOL.

Disassembly, individual cell testing, and reconfiguration of a Tesla S pack containing thousands of cells will probably always be impracticable.

You probably could use S packs in their entirety in stationary applications (using active thermal management, of course) but the relatively small number of used S packs with that come on the market in the next ~decade will limit this application.

Over the next ~decade, S packs with the highest remaining capacity could find a higher value use in replacing the OE packs in those high-miles-driven S's whose owners want to extend their vehicles useful life beyond that of their OE pack.
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RegGuheert
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Re: Repurposing of LEAF batteries in stationary applications

Sat Jun 20, 2015 3:59 am

Here's an article in Wired Magazine on similar efforts by GM for used Chevy Volt batteries: GM's Using Old Chevy Volt Batteries to Power a Building

Unfortunately, the article is long on fluff and short on technical details. This quote is about as technical as they get:
Wired Magazine wrote:To prove it, General Motors is now using five sets of batteries from aging Chevrolet Volts to help power a new data center at its Milford Proving Ground.
I guess I cannot picture five aging Chevy Volt batteries powering a data center for very long.

Chelsea gets quoted in that article:
Wired Magazine wrote:“Most used EV batteries will end up being used in a variety of ways related to stationary energy storage,” says Chelsea Sexton, an electric vehicle advocate.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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