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Marktm
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Re: Repurposing of LEAF batteries in secondary non-BEV applications.

Wed Nov 30, 2016 6:29 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
No, I'm still driving it.


I'm not hopeful that an affordable system that meets my needs (Leaf battery back-up for emergency off-grid) will be offered anytime soon. The Tesla Powerwall 2 appears to be headed in the right direction at a seemingly competitive price. However, not sure it is well integrated for emergency use yet - cannot find any real tech data on that.
2012 Leaf SL; 36,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.
Rural cabin with 6750 watts Grid tied PV. Off-grid solar Leaf charging capable (level II).

edatoakrun
Posts: 5218
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: V to G and repurposing of BEV batteries in secondary non-BEV applications.

Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:26 am

V2G found to improve the lifetime of electric vehicle batteries

Intelligent use of vehicle to grid (V2G) technology can improve the battery life of electric vehicles according to a new study from the University of Warwick, potentially disproving a key criticism levelled at the technology.

Working with the Energy and Electrical Systems group of the university’s research division WMG and Jaguar Land Rover, Dr Kotub Uddin analysed advanced lithium ion batteries used in commercially available EVs over a two year period.

This allowed him to create what is thought to be one of the most accurate battery degradation models existing in the public domain to predict battery capacity and power fade over time, under various ageing acceleration factors including temperature, state of charge, current and depth of discharge.

Using this model, Dr Uddin developed a ‘smart grid’ algorithm to calculate how much energy a vehicle requires to carry out daily journeys, and how much energy can be taken from its battery without negatively affecting it, or even improving its longevity.

This algorithm was then applied to WMG’s International Digital Laboratory to see if energy from EVs parked on the University of Warwick campus could power the multi-use building.

The study concluded that the number of EVs parked on the campus (around 2.1% of cars, in line with the UK market share of EVs) could spare the energy to power this building. In doing so, capacity fade in participant EV batteries would be reduced by up to 9.1%, and power fade by up to 12.1% over a year...

Until now a general consensus had been in place that the increased cycles imposed on a battery by V2G would lead to more rapid degradation. However, the new study suggests that this process is more complex than thought and that in fact, it can be exploited to improve a battery’s lifetime..
.
https://www.cleanenergynews.co.uk/news/ ... -batteries
no condition is permanent

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Marktm
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Re: V to G and repurposing of BEV batteries in secondary non-BEV applications.

Sun Jul 23, 2017 1:37 pm



For MUCH more details on this study:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360544217306825

It is notable that part of the study assumptions is that "cheap" batteries will be used to store (renewable) energy during peak productions and then "trickle" charged to the vehicle when not being used. What I've found is that used Leafs are about the cheapest form of batteries that includes a high quality BMS . Eventually, the used EV battery market might impact this?

It would seem a more realistic approach would be to keep our existing generation/distribution systems fully loaded 24/7 by charging EVs off peak and eliminate the major inefficiencies of coal/nat gas generation turn-down. Then, judiciously feed back energy from these EVs as needed to "fill the gaps" of energy generated by the ever increasing amounts of renewable forms (and prevent peaking plants from being needed). I wonder if the results (better battery life??) would be the same under this more rigorous charging scenario?

It is possible that alternate methods are covered in the (many pages) of the study - I have only "skimmed" it at this time - but it is very interesting that it could be possible to minimize battery degradation with (really) smart grid controls.
2012 Leaf SL; 36,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.
Rural cabin with 6750 watts Grid tied PV. Off-grid solar Leaf charging capable (level II).

edatoakrun
Posts: 5218
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: V to G and repurposing of BEV batteries in secondary non-BEV applications.

Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:57 am

Last night at the NRC LEAF preview I asked Brian (?) about the 2018 LEAF and V to G/H.

He said he expected an announcement in about a month.

Probably will be sold by an outside vendor, not Nissan dealerships, and that the product would be"expensive".

Wonder how the pack warranties will cover no-miles-driven-battery-cycling?

2018 looked pretty good, BTW, but it is obviously a refresh, rather than a new model, which IMO confirms what a damn good BEV Nissan designed way back when.
no condition is permanent

edatoakrun
Posts: 5218
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
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Leaf Number: 2184
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Re: V to G and repurposing of BEV batteries in secondary non-BEV applications.

Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:47 am

Welcome to the 45th EV rally and Show by the San Jose and Silicon Valley
chapters of the Electric Auto Association. This Saturday, Sep 16th...

A 2018 Nissan Leaf will be on display in a special Nissan pavilion. The car
will also be providing electric power to the pavilion through a
vehicle-to-grid adapter developed for the LEAF...



no condition is permanent

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Marktm
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Re: V to G and repurposing of BEV batteries in secondary non-BEV applications.

Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:09 pm

Can someone attend and obtain what information is available about the "V2G" set up. Wonder if it is in reality a grid-tied set up or partially powering some of the energy consumers directly? Any information of the bi-directional CHAdeMO protocols/software/firmware would sure be interesting - as would the output AC power characteristics - if it is in reality a non-grid-tied energy system.

Not likely I'll see such a demo here in Houston, TX!!
2012 Leaf SL; 36,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.
Rural cabin with 6750 watts Grid tied PV. Off-grid solar Leaf charging capable (level II).

edatoakrun
Posts: 5218
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: V to G and repurposing of BEV batteries in secondary non-BEV applications.

Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:26 am

I just completed a survey from my local utility, PG&E.

We would like to ask you some questions concerning an emerging technology that PG&E is investigating.

It will soon be possible for those with electric vehicles to use their EV’s battery to power their homes directly (off-grid) for several hours or even several days, depending on the capacity of the battery.

The "expected" cost of a complete installation linking solar, grid, and vehicle pack (charge and discharge) was stated in this survey to be $6,000.

As I've mentioned before, once i have solar and a charge/discharge device, I doubt I'd still want a grid connection, but, for some reason, that option was not on PG&E's survey...

Most people will want the grid of course, which is why I think PG&E and other utilities are taking V-to-G seriously.
no condition is permanent

edatoakrun
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
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Re: V to G and repurposing of BEV batteries in secondary non-BEV applications.

Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:54 pm

Nissan UK has announced:

THE ALL IN ONE SOLUTION FOR INTELLIGENT LIVING

Efficient, reliable, sustainable. We combine world-class solar panels with our Intelligent energy storage system to create an everyday energy system for you and your family.

ON SALE SOON...

WHY NISSAN

From our innovative battery technology, to our world-leading electric vehicles, we are always looking for more efficient, reliable and sustainable ways to power your life.

We have partnered with some of the world’s largest and most advanced energy companies to provide our customers with a fully integrated product range, seamless service and genuine value.

Our products are some of the most sustainable on the market, giving a second life to batteries from our electric vehicles and maximising our use of recyclable materials.

https://www.nissanenergysolar.com/

Reported elsewhere, a very attractive price:

Nissan launches all-in-one energy solution for UK homes

...According to Nissan, the system reduces energy costs by up to 66% and carbon footprint for homeowners, by automating energy flows, purposefully utilizing solar production peaks and storage capacities.

Nissan Energy Solar solution will start at £3881....

https://electriccarsreport.com/2018/01/ ... -uk-homes/
no condition is permanent

edatoakrun
Posts: 5218
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
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Re: V to G and repurposing of BEV batteries in secondary non-BEV applications.

Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:10 pm

As I've said before, the good news is that your 2011 LEAF battery pack may well outlive you...

And the economics of grid storage will soon be transformed by these active retirees.

Everybody seems to understand this, except TSLA, with its disposable BEV/disposable pack strategy.

Retired electric-car batteries get second life chilling beer, grilling sausages

MELBOURNE/TOKYO (BLOOMBERG) - The first batches of batteries from electric and hybrid vehicles are hitting retirement age, yet they are not bound for landfills.

Instead, they will spend their golden years chilling beer at 7-Elevens convenience stores in Japan, powering car-charging stations in California and storing energy for homes and grids in Europe.

Lithium-ion car and bus batteries can collect and discharge electricity for another seven to 10 years after being taken off the roads and stripped from chassis - a shelf life with significant ramifications for global carmakers, electricity providers and raw-materials suppliers.

Finding ways to reuse the technology is becoming more urgent as the global stockpile of electric vehicles (EV) batteries is forecast to exceed the equivalent of about 3.4 million packs by 2025, compared with about 55,000 this year, according to calculations based on Bloomberg NEF (BNEF) data....

By 2040, more than half of new-car sales and a third of the global fleet - equal to 559 million vehicles - will be electric. By 2050, companies will have invested about US$550 billion (S$752 billion) in home, industrial and grid-scale battery storage, according to BNEF.

"The logic behind this is the circular economy," said Cecile Sobole, programme manager for Renault's EV business. "The battery coming from the electric vehicle will become more and more a part of the energy world."

Yet as many companies dive in, the biggest US electric-car maker, Tesla, stays on the sidelines. The Palo Alto, California-based company said its batteries probably would not be suitable for a new task after 10 to 15 years of use, and it is focusing on recovering the raw materials...

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/euro ... g-sausages
no condition is permanent

GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1826
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: V to G and repurposing of BEV batteries in secondary non-BEV applications.

Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:16 am

edatoakrun wrote:As I've said before, the good news is that your 2011 LEAF battery pack may well outlive you...

And the economics of grid storage will soon be transformed by these active retirees.

Everybody seems to understand this, except TSLA, with its disposable BEV/disposable pack strategy.

Retired electric-car batteries get second life chilling beer, grilling sausages

MELBOURNE/TOKYO (BLOOMBERG) - The first batches of batteries from electric and hybrid vehicles are hitting retirement age, yet they are not bound for landfills.

Instead, they will spend their golden years chilling beer at 7-Elevens convenience stores in Japan, powering car-charging stations in California and storing energy for homes and grids in Europe.

Lithium-ion car and bus batteries can collect and discharge electricity for another seven to 10 years after being taken off the roads and stripped from chassis - a shelf life with significant ramifications for global carmakers, electricity providers and raw-materials suppliers.

Finding ways to reuse the technology is becoming more urgent as the global stockpile of electric vehicles (EV) batteries is forecast to exceed the equivalent of about 3.4 million packs by 2025, compared with about 55,000 this year, according to calculations based on Bloomberg NEF (BNEF) data....

By 2040, more than half of new-car sales and a third of the global fleet - equal to 559 million vehicles - will be electric. By 2050, companies will have invested about US$550 billion (S$752 billion) in home, industrial and grid-scale battery storage, according to BNEF.

"The logic behind this is the circular economy," said Cecile Sobole, programme manager for Renault's EV business. "The battery coming from the electric vehicle will become more and more a part of the energy world."

Yet as many companies dive in, the biggest US electric-car maker, Tesla, stays on the sidelines. The Palo Alto, California-based company said its batteries probably would not be suitable for a new task after 10 to 15 years of use, and it is focusing on recovering the raw materials...

https://www.straitstimes.com/world/euro ... g-sausages


Tesla chooses to recycle their batteries when they are no longer fit for use in a vehicle. Other manufacturers re-purpose them for grid-tied storage. I understand the old saying Reduce-Reuse-Recycle was intended in that order (i.e. good to recycle, better to reuse, best to reduce). So you have an inkling of a point in calling out Tesla for skipping the Reuse stage and going straight to Recycling. But reducing Tesla's strategy to "disposable BEV/disposable pack"? You've really outdone yourself, Ed.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

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