edatoakrun
Posts: 4716
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Business model of TSLA "free...forever" charge network

Sat Nov 19, 2016 3:35 pm

Now that "forever" is over, time to consider how Tesla will pay for its DC network.

Since Tesla already rations kW between chargers at many sites based on demand by lowering kW deliveries when more BEVs are plugged in, a time simple per-minute-fee might be a viable option.

Tesla could adjust the fee depending on the cost of electricity in the area.

For example, in high-cost California, at a site with six chargers, 360 kW total capacity, and 120 kW capacity per charger, it could set the fee at 50 cents per minute.

This would result in a variable cost per kWh of 25 to 50 cents per kWh, depending on how many BEVs are charging, which would might at least come close to TSLA's actual delivery costs per kWh.

This would also incentivize drivers to avoid charge sites already near full occupancy, and also to leave earlier as the last empty chargers filled up.

In related news, Musk hinted at model 3 DC charge fees last week:

Elon Musk says Tesla Model 3 will include ‘free long-distance charging’

...the Model 3 will not qualify for lifetime free supercharging, however in answering this question Mr. Musk stated:

Model 3, from the beginning we said free charging is not included in the Model 3 – free unlimited charging is not included, so, free long distance is, but not free local. It becomes really unwieldy for people to use the gas station approach for electric cars, like, cars should really be charged where you charge your phone, but then you just need to solve the long distance problem which is what the supercharger stations will do.

We suspect this means that they will be on a similar program to the Model S, with a certain kWh allowance per year – only perhaps with a lower limit as the Model 3 is expected to be a more efficient vehicle. Tesla has responded that they have nothing further to announce beyond what Elon said on stage.

You can see a video of the meeting with Q&A here. This answer starts about 15:30 into the video...
https://www.tesla.com/shareholdermeeting

https://electrek.co/2016/11/17/elon-mus ... -charging/

TSLA has also begun to try to get payments from site hosts:

Tesla is increasingly able to make businesses pay for the electricity delivered by its Superchargers

https://electrek.co/2016/11/16/tesla-su ... ectricity/

This may soon be a problem as well as an opportunity for TSLA, IMO.

Once site hosts begin to actually have to pay to charge Tesla BEVs, they may soon to realize that they can optimize the costs and benefits to their businesses by offering DC charging to all BEV drivers instead.
no condition is permanent

GRA
Posts: 7443
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Business model of the NOT "free...forever" Tesla DC network

Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:51 pm

Via IEVS:
Elon Musk: Tesla To “Take Action” On Long-Term Supercharger Spot Hogging
http://insideevs.com/elon-musk-tesla-to ... t-hogging/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

edatoakrun
Posts: 4716
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Business model of the NOT "free...forever" Tesla DC network

Sun May 21, 2017 11:32 am

Clear-as-mud explanation of the latest policies RE the NOT "free...forever" Tesla DC network.

Understanding Tesla’s new Supercharger access for Model S and Model X

After the changes to both the Supercharger access structure and the referral program today, it can be difficult to understand the current situation around the access to Tesla’s fast-charging network. There were a lot of questions in the comment section of our last article about it.

We reached out to Tesla to get the best understanding that we can in order to break it down to you as simply as possible in this post...

The terms farce and desperation neither of which I would dispute, come up in the discussion below:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 344/page-4
no condition is permanent

edatoakrun
Posts: 4716
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
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Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Business model of the NOT "free...forever" Tesla DC network

Mon May 29, 2017 9:40 am

Reply on-topic below, to comments at:

Official Tesla Model 3 thread

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=18016&start=680

It's quite striking that many Tesla owners do not comprehend the degree of control TSLA exerts over them by denying them access to any public chargers (DC charging stations) unless they make a large payment to buy into TSLA's own network, a network to which it also bars public access to all other BEVs.

As long as TSLA maintains this policy, Tesla vehicles will only interact with the public charging infrastructure only parasitically, reducing access and dependability of nearby public chargers to drivers of all other BEVs during peak demand periods, when TSLA's own chargers are inadequate.

dgpcolorado wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:If TSLA sells a significant fraction of the total number of model Threes it has projected, we should expect to find public DC charge stations Tesla'd frequently, whenever nearby proprietary "superchargers" are crowded.

Thank you, Tesla, for your generous policy of:

Our chargers are ours, and yours we can share... ...
Perhaps not. It takes a $450 adapter for a Tesla to use Chademo; how many Model 3 owners will buy one? Very few, would be my guess...

You missed the far more likely reason model 3s may not damage public charging opportunities very much implied by my statement above, that TSLA simply may not sell very many model 3s.

="dgpcolorado"...There is a possibility that the Model 3 will eventually get a CCS port; quite likely in Europe, less certain here. But that's not Chademo...

Virtually all new public stations in the US have both public port options, and probably will for the foreseeable future, so your comment is irrelevant.

Again, what you seem to be missing is that TSLA's policy to date has been to make purchasing access to its "free" DC charger network mandatory, at a cost of thousands of dollars before it will permit you (or any other Tesla driver) access to any public DC chargers.

TSLA has never allowed buyers to opt out of the very high costs of "free supercharging", and use public chargers instead.

And I doubt TSLA ever will give its vehicle owners that option, unless compelled by legal action or the demands of its creditors.

="dgpcolorado"...Anyway, Tesla and its customers paid for those Superchargers...

TSLA has lost money, huge amounts of money, every year since it's creation.

So it would be more accurate to state that TSLA's investors expect future Tesla buyers to pay for the chargers.

="dgpcolorado"...Did you pay for the Chademo DCFC stations? How are they "yours?"...

Any BEV driver can charge their BEV at public Chademo/CCS chargers, and we "pay for them" every time we use them.

By doing so every time we travel outside our initial range, we are doing what Tesla drivers are not, contributing to the establishment of the public charger infrastructure that will be required to accelerate the retirement of the ICEV/PHEV vehicle fleet.
no condition is permanent

SageBrush
Posts: 1423
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Business model of the NOT "free...forever" Tesla DC network

Mon May 29, 2017 12:58 pm

edatoakrun wrote:It's quite striking that many Tesla owners do not comprehend the degree of control TSLA exerts over them by denying them access to any public chargers (DC charging stations) unless they make a large payment to buy into TSLA's own network, a network to which it also bars public access to all other BEVs.


You are grossly misinformed.
SuperCharger access has been an optional purchase for the majority of Tesla's existence, with some exceptions where the access is given for free if a high trim model is purchased. The car comes with an On-board charger and a versatile mobile EVSE. An inexpensive J1772 adapter is available, as is a $450 ChaDemo adapter.

Where do you come up with this nonsense ?
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

SageBrush
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Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Business model of the NOT "free...forever" Tesla DC network

Mon May 29, 2017 1:10 pm

edatoakrun wrote:By doing so every time we travel outside our initial range, we are doing what Tesla drivers are not, contributing to the establishment of the public charger infrastructure that will be required to accelerate the retirement of the ICEV/PHEV vehicle fleet.

Your reasoning is perverse.

A taxpayer with only an ICE vehicle subsidizes your charging network, but you berate them for not continuing to pay fees even though they leave the network available for people like yourself ?
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

edatoakrun
Posts: 4716
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Business model of the NOT "free...forever" Tesla DC network

Mon May 29, 2017 7:04 pm

SageBrush wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:It's quite striking that many Tesla owners do not comprehend the degree of control TSLA exerts over them by denying them access to any public chargers (DC charging stations) unless they make a large payment to buy into TSLA's own network, a network to which it also bars public access to all other BEVs.

You are grossly misinformed...

In fact, it sounds like you may be.

The reality is Tesla will not allow you to have a CSS or CHAdeMO port to access public chargers on any of the BEVs it has built to date.

The only way a Tesla owner (S and X, not the Roadster) can charge at a public charger is by FIRST buying access to Tesla's proprietary DC chargers (usually included in the inflated initial sales price of Tesla BEVs) and then, IN ADDITION, buying the CHAdeMO adapter from Tesla:

...For Model S without Supercharging enabled, onboard hardware must be activated to use the CHAdeMO adapter...

https://shop.teslamotors.com/collection ... mo-adapter

If TSLA actually gave a damn for the convenience of its customers it would sell you a BEV equipped to charge at any public CSS/CHAdeMO DC site, and would never have installed proprietary charge ports as barriers to BEV infrastructure commonality on all of its cars in the first place.
no condition is permanent

Firetruck41
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Location: SW Washington State

Re: Business model of the NOT "free...forever" Tesla DC network

Mon May 29, 2017 7:31 pm

You are "forced to buy" into a DCQC network every time you charge at a "not free" charger. Tesla owners prepay for the network they use most. They can choose to buy a Tesla with those terms you mention, or they can choose not to buy a Tesla, or they can choose to buy and enable an adapter. Market forces will determine if that works, so far, I doubt the lack of chademo or CSS port has dissuaded very many potential Tesla customers.

So far, you seem upset that Tesla had "forced" their customers to prepay, and you are upset that from now on, they are not going to make their customers prepay and therefore possibly encourage one to sully a CSS or Chademo charger. You are upset that Tesla owners are not paying into the CSS/Chademo infrastructure because they haven't needed/used it much, but are upset they will pay for it in the future as an alternative to paying for Tesla QC access. Seems to me, there is nothing Tesla or their customers could do that would make you happy.
8/2015- New to me 12bar 2013 SV w/QC package and 37k miles

SageBrush
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Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Business model of the NOT "free...forever" Tesla DC network

Mon May 29, 2017 8:19 pm

edatoakrun wrote:The only way ... ... ...

By the way, you are right that an activation fee existed to use the ChaDemo charger This never had anything to do with SuperChargers. This discussion taught me that, so it was not a complete waste of my time. However, since the Model 3 and more expensive models are activated for SuperCharger use from day #1 nowadays, that fee has been effectively deprecated.

It comes down to this:
Tesla and its customers spent their money to build out and use their own network.
You may think that you know better how they should have spent their money, but guess what ? They did not ask your opinion and could not care less how you want to spend someone else's money.

Moreover, if a Tesla should use a CCS (not possible currently) or a ChaDemo charging station, they have every right to do so, equal to your right, since both of you paid equally for the network and its use.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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jlv
Posts: 551
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2014 6:08 pm
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2014
Leaf Number: 424487
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Business model of the NOT "free...forever" Tesla DC network

Tue May 30, 2017 7:25 am

edatoakrun wrote:If TSLA actually gave a damn for the convenience of its customers it would sell you a BEV equipped to charge at any public CSS/CHAdeMO DC site,
Do you similarly condemn NIssan for not including a CHAdeMO on every LEAF it sells?
'13 SL+Prem (mfg 12/13, leased 4/14, bought 5/17)Tesla S 75D (3/17)
Model 3 reservation
(Probably no LEAF2 for me)

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