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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:54 am

Is that true, just like that all emissions regulations are gone?
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
[35 months] [35K miles] [9 Bars]
2013 Volt replaced after 36 months/30k miles with ICE Rogue

WetEV
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:17 am

LTLFTcomposite wrote:Is that true, just like that all emissions regulations are gone?


Not yet. Will take years to roll back regulations. Follow the laws carefully, and when hauled into court (likely in this case) and you might prevail.

To be fair to Trump, I've not yet heard about rolling back NOx regulations.
WetEV
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2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
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Durandal
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:48 am

DarthPuppy wrote:With Trump's rolling back the federal emission regulations, are all those VW diesels that VW has been buying back now perfectly legal to own and drive here in the U.S.? Of course, not in California, but elsewhere in the U.S., these might no longer be an issue from a legal point. From an environmental point, they are still a disaster. But VW was likely to ship them to overseas markets with less stringent rules, so the solution was really to relocate the polluter to another area, which isn't really a solution.


I'd be perfectly happy if all diesel engines were removed from the United States and then transported to foreign countries, as it would make the air in the U.S. cleaner, even if it didn't improve the situation for the world as a whole. My concerns are prioritized based on:
1. The air my family and I breathe.
2. The air that those in my community breathe.
3. The air that those in my state breathe.
4. The air that those in my country breathe.
5. The air that those in the rest of the world breathe.

If I can make #1-4 better by making #5 worse, I'll do it. However, if I can make #1-5 better all at once, I'll do that instead. Yes, I want to help everyone, but I want to help those around me more.
Pulled the trigger on going EV on 10/2016 with a 2012 Leaf, and a Tesla Model 3 reservation expected to receive in June 2018.

GRA
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:21 pm

Via ABG:
VW gets EPA approval to sell backlog of fixed 2015 diesels
About 12,000 are currently in dealer inventory.
http://www.autoblog.com/2017/03/30/vw-g ... 5-diesels/

Volkswagen AG said the US Environmental Protection Agency has approved its request to sell up to 67,000 diesel vehicles from the 2015 model year, including about 12,000 currently in dealer inventory with approved emissions modifications.

The vehicles in inventory were held when the company issued a stop sale in September 2015. . . .

The EPA approved a fix for specific Volkswagen diesel models in January. They include the 2015 Beetle, Golf, Golf SportWagen, Jetta, Passat, and Audi A3 equipped with the 2.0-liter TDI engine. The approved modifications include a software update, with plans for a particulate filter, additional catalysts, and another software update to come when those parts become available next year. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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RegGuheert
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Wed May 10, 2017 5:24 am

VW looks to natural gas as it pivots away from diesel
Autoweek wrote:In the wake of the ongoing Volkswagen diesel scandal, VW is exploring options outside diesel that could help it lower emissions and improve fleet fuel economy. One potential avenue is cars that run on natural gas, and VW has been talking with both Exxon Mobil and Gazprom in hopes they back the idea.
The article goes on to say:
Autoweek wrote:VW plans to roll out four electric vehicles in the next few years, as the automaker has made progress in reducing EV production costs. However, both compressed natural gas (CNG) and electric propulsion are needed to lower its fleet-wide carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions while distancing the automaker from its diesel scandal.
Like H2, natural gas is not an option around here due to the lack of filling stations.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
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tattoogunman
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Wed May 10, 2017 7:01 am

Durandal wrote:
DarthPuppy wrote:With Trump's rolling back the federal emission regulations, are all those VW diesels that VW has been buying back now perfectly legal to own and drive here in the U.S.? Of course, not in California, but elsewhere in the U.S., these might no longer be an issue from a legal point. From an environmental point, they are still a disaster. But VW was likely to ship them to overseas markets with less stringent rules, so the solution was really to relocate the polluter to another area, which isn't really a solution.


I'd be perfectly happy if all diesel engines were removed from the United States and then transported to foreign countries, as it would make the air in the U.S. cleaner, even if it didn't improve the situation for the world as a whole. My concerns are prioritized based on:
1. The air my family and I breathe.
2. The air that those in my community breathe.
3. The air that those in my state breathe.
4. The air that those in my country breathe.
5. The air that those in the rest of the world breathe.

If I can make #1-4 better by making #5 worse, I'll do it. However, if I can make #1-5 better all at once, I'll do that instead. Yes, I want to help everyone, but I want to help those around me more.


And in so doing, we would have to completely change our entire product shipment infrastructure since most of it is hauled around by diesel trucks ;) Would be nice though.

Durandal
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Wed May 10, 2017 6:38 pm

tattoogunman wrote:
And in so doing, we would have to completely change our entire product shipment infrastructure since most of it is hauled around by diesel trucks ;) Would be nice though.

Thankfully Elon Musk and Tesla are working on that one! :D
Pulled the trigger on going EV on 10/2016 with a 2012 Leaf, and a Tesla Model 3 reservation expected to receive in June 2018.

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IssacZachary
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu May 11, 2017 12:16 am

Durandal wrote:I'd be perfectly happy if all diesel engines were removed from the United States and then transported to foreign countries, as it would make the air in the U.S. cleaner, even if it didn't improve the situation for the world as a whole. My concerns are prioritized based on:
1. The air my family and I breathe.
2. The air that those in my community breathe.
3. The air that those in my state breathe.
4. The air that those in my country breathe.
5. The air that those in the rest of the world breathe.

If I can make #1-4 better by making #5 worse, I'll do it. However, if I can make #1-5 better all at once, I'll do that instead. Yes, I want to help everyone, but I want to help those around me more.

Is there any proof that just because it's a diesel it automatically produces more emissions than gasoline? Diesels used to be hailed for producing less emissions naturally than gasoline engines do. The problem is that it's easier to clean dirty exhaust than cleaner exhaust. For an example, the "2 stroke" Mazda RX-7 got steller emissions out of the tail pipe, but the exhaust before the catalytic converter was about equivalent to a mobile evaporating oil spill.

Yes, what VW did was nasty wrong. And getting NOx levels lower in a diesel engine is more difficult than in a gasoline engine. But that doesn't mean it can't be done. If we go all gasoline you do realize there's a potential for actually increasing emissions, not decreasing them, at least for certain types of transportation.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu May 11, 2017 2:51 am

Is there any proof that just because it's a diesel it automatically produces more emissions than gasoline? Diesels used to be hailed for producing less emissions naturally than gasoline engines do.


That hailing was mostly done by diesel advocates, I think. The problem is more particulates in the exhaust, and the fact that it's hard to just make lots of particulate matter vanish into thin air, so to speak. The "burnoff" approach that VW used to use was maybe the best way, although urea injection also works. You just have to keep refilling a urea tank. And no, urine doesn't work just as well. ;-)
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

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IssacZachary
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu May 11, 2017 7:50 pm

LeftieBiker wrote: That hailing was mostly done by diesel advocates, I think. The problem is more particulates in the exhaust, and the fact that it's hard to just make lots of particulate matter vanish into thin air, so to speak. The "burnoff" approach that VW used to use was maybe the best way, although urea injection also works. You just have to keep refilling a urea tank. And no, urine doesn't work just as well. ;-)


I'm sure that the diesel advocates were all over it (maybe that includes me). But I also remember seeing those figures in some rather reliable sources (e.g. World Book Encyclopedia).

Also not that the urea injection isn't for particulate matter. Now these are the big two emissions that diesels are known for, particulate matter and oxides of nitrogen.

Particulate matter wasn't regulated for years even after regulations for stricter for HC, CO and NOx emissions. I guess they didn't see it as poisonous as the other emissions. However once they started regulating PM (around 2010 for commercial diesels, at least in Colorado) they were mostly done away with by simply adding on an active or passive particulate filter and incineration system. Active particulate incineration means periodically spraying fuel into the particulate filter to heat it up and incinerate the PM before the filter clogs. On long haul diesels the particulate filter receives enough heat from the engine running all day long to incinerate the PM. With such systems PM is no longer a problem, and as far so know wasn't any part of the reason VW got into trouble.

The main problem with modern diesel engines is no longer the PM but the NOx emissions. That's where urea injection comes in.

It used to be that diesels naturally got better NOx emissions than gasoline engines. This is because gasoline had to burn close to its stoichiometric air/fuel ratio (many times going lean as carburetors weren't precise), which is quite hot, whereas diesels normally run far from stoichiometric in a super lean phase running lots of cool air through the cylinders which keeps overall combustion temps cool. The excess of oxygen also has always made diesels produce far less CO and HC emissions. But then the EGR system was invented for the gasoline engine along with precise fuel injection. Such systems have allowed NOx emissions to be largely reduced in gasoline engines. But they don't work a well on diesel engines because diesel engines don't run well close to stoichiometric nor do they run well with EGR.

In conclusion, the main emissions hurdle for modern diesels isn't the typical black cloud of particulate matter. It's the difficult to control NOx emissions. But that doesn't mean that it can't be done, and I hope the scientists can get this figured out for small diesel engines.

I get upwards of 55mpg going 75mph in my 1985 VW diesel, sometimes over 60mpg if I'm careful with the pedal. I kind of think something must be wrong with technology in the sense that very few cars can attain that kind of fuel mileage today.
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

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