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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:37 am

The funny part in all this is the owners weren't really the ones harmed, with the possible exception of those who for some personal reasons had to trade vehicles during the period of uncertainty. The ones who were harmed is society as a whole, owners who didn't panic come up smelling like a rose.

Aside from assuaging some false sense of aggrievment, what people hope to accomplish by littering their back yards with parts for cars that won't be in circulation any more is beyond me.
LTL
White 2012 SV delivered 10 Dec 2011 returned 25 Nov 2014 replaced with stopgap ICE Sentra
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wikki
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:38 am

I picked up a Leaf a couple of weeks ago and turned in my Jetta on Friday.

While I didn't strip anything out of it, the battery was completely dead and something was up with the glow plug system so when it was cold it was almost impossible to start.

When I drove it in the dealership was fine with that. I certainly wasn't going to spend money fixing a car I was about to give away.
2015 Leaf S 14K Miles as of 12/15/2016

craig
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:05 am

wikki wrote:I picked up a Leaf a couple of weeks ago and turned in my Jetta on Friday.

While I didn't strip anything out of it, the battery was completely dead and something was up with the glow plug system so when it was cold it was almost impossible to start.

When I drove it in the dealership was fine with that. I certainly wasn't going to spend money fixing a car I was about to give away.


So VW is already buying cars back? I have all my papers in and am waiting for their email setting up an appointment to come in. How long did you wait?
I would have preferred that the U.S. govt simply fined VW for every diesel sold, and grandfathered present owners. I would keep my Jetta TDI forever.
Germany has been conducting extensive tests, and found that all the ICE cars on their roads, gas and diesel, are emitting far more in actual operation than they do in testing (gee, imagine that).
Why the American witch hunt, unless it is either a hunt for deep pockets or a vendetta against VW for displacing GM as world leader? GM slid by with their deadly ignition switches, as did Toyota with their runaway throttles, but VW is being crucified for a defect (yeah, I know that they cheated) that hasn't cost a single life.
2005 Honda Insight (sold)
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charged with CC LCS-25

WetEV
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Fri Dec 23, 2016 12:03 pm

craig wrote:VW is being crucified for a defect (yeah, I know that they cheated) that hasn't cost a single life.


Air pollution kills.

Breaking news from 1952. Ok, a bit stale. 4000 dead in 4 days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog_of_London
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Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
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cwerdna
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:20 pm

craig wrote:but VW is being crucified for a defect (yeah, I know that they cheated) that hasn't cost a single life.

Study: Volkswagen’s emissions cheat to cause 60 premature deaths in U.S.:
http://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emi ... eaths-1029

There are more details in the article.

Judge warns Volkswagen diesel owners to stop stripping their cars of parts:
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/12/23/judg ... pping-car/

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arnis
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Fri Dec 23, 2016 3:46 pm

cwerdna wrote:
craig wrote:but VW is being crucified for a defect (yeah, I know that they cheated) that hasn't cost a single life.

Study: Volkswagen’s emissions cheat to cause 60 premature deaths in U.S.:
http://news.mit.edu/2015/volkswagen-emi ... eaths-1029

There are more details in the article.

Judge warns Volkswagen diesel owners to stop stripping their cars of parts:
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/12/23/judg ... pping-car/



There is one huge thing that NOBODY in the media takes into account.
Due to the fact VW cheated with NOx emissions the overall emissions (well to wheel) are reduced.
And the overall emission reduction outweighs NOx.
Very shortly: due to weaker after treatment of exhaust gases fuel consumption is reduced a LOT.
More than 10%. Due to that much less CO2 (and all other pollutants, excluding NOx) are being emit.
That does include everything BEFORE vehicle, like emission due to reduced fuel consumption.
That includes crude oil production emission. Fuel transportation emission. And even vehicle production emissions.

There is an equilibrium of exhaust gas treatment. Tipping that means doing more harm than good.
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GRA
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Sat Dec 24, 2016 12:57 pm

arnis wrote:There is one huge thing that NOBODY in the media takes into account.
Due to the fact VW cheated with NOx emissions the overall emissions (well to wheel) are reduced.
And the overall emission reduction outweighs NOx.
Very shortly: due to weaker after treatment of exhaust gases fuel consumption is reduced a LOT.
More than 10%. Due to that much less CO2 (and all other pollutants, excluding NOx) are being emit.
That does include everything BEFORE vehicle, like emission due to reduced fuel consumption.
That includes crude oil production emission. Fuel transportation emission. And even vehicle production emissions.

There is an equilibrium of exhaust gas treatment. Tipping that means doing more harm than good.

Clearly, then, VW should be commended for deliberately violating U.S. and other countries' pollution laws, an act of civic virtue that's gone sadly unrewarded (except for all those cars that they would otherwise have been unable to sell for a decade or so).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Sat Dec 24, 2016 3:47 pm

craig wrote:Germany has been conducting extensive tests, and found that all the ICE cars on their roads, gas and diesel, are emitting far more in actual operation than they do in testing (gee, imagine that).
Reference ? Or are you perhaps referring to gas (petrol) direct injection engines ?

In any case, until ALL models are tested your statement is an over reach.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
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arnis
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Sat Dec 24, 2016 4:13 pm

SageBrush wrote:
craig wrote:Germany has been conducting extensive tests, and found that all the ICE cars on their roads, gas and diesel, are emitting far more in actual operation than they do in testing (gee, imagine that).
Reference ? Or are you perhaps referring to gas (petrol) direct injection engines ?

In any case, until ALL models are tested your statement is an over reach.



And that is mostly done.
http://www.theicct.org/real-world-exhau ... iesel-cars
http://www.theicct.org/news/press-relea ... even-times


It all boils down to the promise how fuel efficient the vehicle is and that it gets worse as vehicles get older.
All pollution data is taken from those lab tests mostly.
As we all know lab tests are not real world tests. As vehicles usually consume much more than promised
the also give as much more pollution as promised.
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SageBrush
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Sun Dec 25, 2016 3:41 am

arnis wrote:
SageBrush wrote:
craig wrote:Germany has been conducting extensive tests, and found that all the ICE cars on their roads, gas and diesel, are emitting far more in actual operation than they do in testing (gee, imagine that).
Reference ? Or are you perhaps referring to gas (petrol) direct injection engines ?

In any case, until ALL models are tested your statement is an over reach.



And that is mostly done.
http://www.theicct.org/real-world-exhau ... iesel-cars
http://www.theicct.org/news/press-relea ... even-times


It all boils down to the promise how fuel efficient the vehicle is and that it gets worse as vehicles get older.
All pollution data is taken from those lab tests mostly.
As we all know lab tests are not real world tests. As vehicles usually consume much more than promised
the also give as much more pollution as promised.

The two ICCT studies you reference are studies of diesel cars. Your original statement said ALL the ICE cars [pollute far more on the road than in testing]. I hope you realize that petrol cars are also ICE.

The story of VW in the dirty diesel world stands out for two reasons (besides fraud):
1. Diesel is dirty, but VW diesel is filthy.
2. The fraud was not perpetrated to pass EPA (as the other diesel models demonstrate,) but because ongoing use of the pollution control devices in VW vehicles would lead to high failure rates of those devices and warranty costs. It is amusing (and not a little sad) that even in the VW forums only a handful of people* understand the real issue that caused diesel to be a failure for VW and extend to diesel in general: reliable, inexpensive and effective pollution control of diesel combustion has not been invented. VW tried to continue business with 0.5 of 3 aspects solved while the other manufacturers are at 1.5 of 3.

*the large majority are mired in conspiracy theories that the EPA is "out to get them."

As vehicles usually consume much more than promised the[y] also give as much more pollution as promised.
You live in a world divorced from reality. Real world MPG spans the range of +/- 20% of EPA for 95% of cars on the road today. VW pollution is 25x the maximum EPA allowed. A Prius emits ~ 10% of allowable EPA criteria pollutants and all the SULEV rated cars emit ~ 30% or less of allowable EPA.

Are you following the arithmetic ? It would take 250 Prius to match the NOx emissions of One VW TDI. "Real World" MPG of the Prius is ~ 48 MPG as self-reported on aggregation websites. That is 96% of EPA.
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Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
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