SageBrush
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Sun Dec 25, 2016 8:25 am

SageBrush wrote:
arnis wrote:Reference ? Or are you perhaps referring to gas (petrol) direct injection engines ?

In any case, until ALL models are tested your statement is an over reach.



And that is mostly done.
http://www.theicct.org/real-world-exhau ... iesel-cars
http://www.theicct.org/news/press-relea ... even-times


It all boils down to the promise how fuel efficient the vehicle is and that it gets worse as vehicles get older.
All pollution data is taken from those lab tests mostly.
As we all know lab tests are not real world tests. As vehicles usually consume much more than promised
the also give as much more pollution as promised.

The two ICCT studies you reference are studies of diesel cars. Your original statement said ALL the ICE cars [pollute far more on the road than in testing]. I hope you realize that petrol cars are also ICE.

The story of VW in the dirty diesel world stands out for two reasons (besides fraud):
1. Diesel is dirty, but VW diesel is filthy.
2. The fraud was not perpetrated to pass EPA (as the other diesel models demonstrate,) but because ongoing use of the pollution control devices in VW vehicles would lead to high failure rates of those devices and warranty costs. It is amusing (and not a little sad) that even in the VW forums only a handful of people* understand the real issue that caused diesel to be a failure for VW and extend to diesel in general: reliable, inexpensive and effective pollution control of diesel combustion has not been invented. VW tried to continue business with 0.5 of 3 aspects solved while the other manufacturers are at 1.5 of 3.

*the large majority are mired in conspiracy theories that the EPA is "out to get them."

As vehicles usually consume much more than promised the[y] also give as much more pollution as promised.
[/quote]You live in a world divorced from reality. Real world MPG spans the range of +/- 20% of EPA for 95% of cars on the road today. VW pollution is 25x the maximum EPA allowed. A Prius emits ~ 4% of allowable EPA NOx and all the SULEV rated cars emit ~ 30% or less of allowable EPA.

Are you following the arithmetic ? It would take 625** Prius to match the NOx emissions of One VW TDI. "Real World" MPG of the Prius is ~ 48 MPG as self-reported on aggregation websites. That is 96% of EPA.

** The actual numbers for NOx:
VW 1500 - 2000 mg/mile per ICCT
Prius 3 mg/mile
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
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arnis
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:43 am

Vehicle emission testing for diesel and gasoline is the same. Same procedure.
To sum up: VW 40x more than allowed, everybody else on average 7x more than allowed.
And also all other pollutants are out of specs, including CO2. DIesel and gasoline.

Problem was not with pollution control reliability. It was about weight and cost.
Lean trap is not working enough. VW or not, it is not working well enough to get down
to specs needed. SCR does work but requires urea system. Weight etc.
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wikki
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:20 am

craig wrote:
wikki wrote:I picked up a Leaf a couple of weeks ago and turned in my Jetta on Friday.

While I didn't strip anything out of it, the battery was completely dead and something was up with the glow plug system so when it was cold it was almost impossible to start.

When I drove it in the dealership was fine with that. I certainly wasn't going to spend money fixing a car I was about to give away.


So VW is already buying cars back? I have all my papers in and am waiting for their email setting up an appointment to come in. How long did you wait?
I would have preferred that the U.S. govt simply fined VW for every diesel sold, and grandfathered present owners. I would keep my Jetta TDI forever.
Germany has been conducting extensive tests, and found that all the ICE cars on their roads, gas and diesel, are emitting far more in actual operation than they do in testing (gee, imagine that).
Why the American witch hunt, unless it is either a hunt for deep pockets or a vendetta against VW for displacing GM as world leader? GM slid by with their deadly ignition switches, as did Toyota with their runaway throttles, but VW is being crucified for a defect (yeah, I know that they cheated) that hasn't cost a single life.


I submitted my documentation on the day the settlement was approved. I think that was back in October. It took until Dec 17th to finally get my appointment.
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RegGuheert
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Wed Dec 28, 2016 3:04 am

Here's a blog post about the VW group. I'm sure it would be interesting if I could only figure out what is says. (It appears to be a bad machine translation from t-online.de.) Some excerpts:

Headline:
German Economy Online wrote:Piech: Chinese want to VW-group purchase

Something here for GRA, methinks:
German Economy Online wrote:The car was “at the end,” he said to the “FAS” and called for more rail transport and the Expansion of public transport: “We need to have more reasonable solutions for transport. To be we’re finally, green!”

Certainly this concluding paragraph sums it all up:
German Economy Online wrote:“Despite all the challenges we taxes on a good delivery result at the end of the year,” said group head of sales at Fred Kappler. “November was a strong month for all our group brands.” The most vigorous to grow the VW-transport division, with an increase of 27.3 percent, followed by Porsche with 11.7 per cent and Skoda with 9.6 percent. The Truck-daughters Scania and MAN were not really on the spot.

My best guess is that it says an heir of the Porsche family who no longer owns shares in the VW group thinks the Chinese may want to purchase the beleaguered automaker.
RegGuheert
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2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 3K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
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edatoakrun
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:51 am

FBI arrests Volkswagen executive on fraud charges: NYT

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has arrested a Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) executive on charges of conspiracy to defraud the United States, the New York Times reported on Monday.

Oliver Schmidt, who headed the company's regulatory compliance office in the U.S. from 2014 to March 2015, was arrested on Saturday by federal investigators in Florida, the newspaper said, citing people familiar with the matter. nyti.ms/2iTA73S

VW admitted in September 2015 to installing secret software known as "defeat devices" in 475,000 U.S. 2.0-liter diesel cars to cheat exhaust emissions tests and make them appear cleaner in testing. In reality, the vehicles emitted up to 40 times the legally allowable pollution levels.

Volkswagen declined to comment on the reported arrest...

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volks ... ss+News%29
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Durandal
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:06 am

edatoakrun wrote:
FBI arrests Volkswagen executive on fraud charges: NYT

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has arrested a Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) executive on charges of conspiracy to defraud the United States, the New York Times reported on Monday.

Oliver Schmidt, who headed the company's regulatory compliance office in the U.S. from 2014 to March 2015, was arrested on Saturday by federal investigators in Florida, the newspaper said, citing people familiar with the matter. nyti.ms/2iTA73S

VW admitted in September 2015 to installing secret software known as "defeat devices" in 475,000 U.S. 2.0-liter diesel cars to cheat exhaust emissions tests and make them appear cleaner in testing. In reality, the vehicles emitted up to 40 times the legally allowable pollution levels.

Volkswagen declined to comment on the reported arrest...

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volks ... ss+News%29


Good news. I hope there are more to come. Far too long companies have simply paid penalties instead of facing criminal charges. I'd love to see arrests over oil spills to start, as well.
Pulled the trigger on going EV on 10/2016

o00scorpion00o
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:47 pm

Durandal wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
FBI arrests Volkswagen executive on fraud charges: NYT

The Federal Bureau of Investigation has arrested a Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) executive on charges of conspiracy to defraud the United States, the New York Times reported on Monday.

Oliver Schmidt, who headed the company's regulatory compliance office in the U.S. from 2014 to March 2015, was arrested on Saturday by federal investigators in Florida, the newspaper said, citing people familiar with the matter. nyti.ms/2iTA73S

VW admitted in September 2015 to installing secret software known as "defeat devices" in 475,000 U.S. 2.0-liter diesel cars to cheat exhaust emissions tests and make them appear cleaner in testing. In reality, the vehicles emitted up to 40 times the legally allowable pollution levels.

Volkswagen declined to comment on the reported arrest...

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volks ... ss+News%29


Good news. I hope there are more to come. Far too long companies have simply paid penalties instead of facing criminal charges. I'd love to see arrests over oil spills to start, as well.


How is this good news ?

Car manufacturers have on many occasions built cars that have actually killed people and not being prosecuted.

The Emissions scandal has not killed anyone.
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Durandal
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Mon Jan 09, 2017 1:59 pm

Diesel exhaust kills.

http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/blo ... kills.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car ... eadly.html

In other words, if diesel emissions are 40x greater than permitted by law (which are supposedly safe levels) then yes, they've killed.
Pulled the trigger on going EV on 10/2016

o00scorpion00o
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Mon Jan 09, 2017 3:39 pm

Durandal wrote:Diesel exhaust kills.

http://www.bizjournals.com/portland/blo ... kills.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/car ... eadly.html

In other words, if diesel emissions are 40x greater than permitted by law (which are supposedly safe levels) then yes, they've killed.


what's good for the Goose !!! Don't just come after one , go after all the manufacturers that create bad designs or where there are design flaws which create a situation where people are killed.

Well in a case where there are prosecutions there needs to be evidence of these deaths.

A fine they deserve but prosecution is excessive to say the least.
Delivery 20 th January 2015 . Top Spec with 6.6 Kw Charger . 33,000 miles as of November 2016.

Levenkay
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:12 pm

Durandal wrote:In other words, if diesel emissions are 40x greater than permitted by law (which are supposedly safe levels) then yes, they've killed.
This reminds me of the various Star Trek crises where the Enterprise's audio alerts have counted down to a "Fatal radiation exposure in five seconds" warning before the critical shield repair is done and everyone heaves a vast, "Wow, that was close; five more seconds' worth of XYZ rays and we'd have been toast!" sigh of relief and goes back to their cheerful business without needing so much as an aspirin.

Based on my comprehensive twenty seconds of Googling, the emissions standard limits are in units of "mass per brake-horsepower hour". Even knowing that a diesel's emissions have exceed these guidelines, you'd have a hard time making a charge of murder stick against its makers. Particularly since operating a diesel lawnmower that exceeded the limits would get you way less exposure, maybe, than working in a rail switchyard full of fully-compliant locomotives

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