GRA
Posts: 7112
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Fri May 12, 2017 4:47 pm

Reuters:
U.S. judge approves Volkswagen 3.0 liter, Bosch diesel settlements
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volks ... SKBN1871WO

A federal judge on Thursday granted final approval on an agreement for Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) to pay at least $1.22 billion to fix or buy back 80,000 3.0-liter vehicles in the United States linked to the German automaker's diesel emissions cheating scandal.

At a court hearing in San Francisco, U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer also said he was granting final approval to German auto supplier Robert Bosch GmbH's separate settlement, under which it will pay $327.5 million to U.S. VW diesel owners for its role in developing the engines.

Breyer said he was overruling all objections and called the settlements, in which Bosch admitted to no wrongdoing, "fair, reasonable and adequate. . . ."

Owners of 3.0 liter vehicles who opt for fixes will get compensation of between $7,000 and $16,000 from Volkswagen if emissions remedies are approved in a timely fashion.

Volkswagen, the best-selling automaker worldwide in 2016, could be forced to pay up to $4.04 billion if regulators do not approve fixes for all 3.0 liter vehicles. . . .


Via GCR:
Extent of Volkswagen diesel deceit detailed in new book
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/111 ... n-new-book

A new book, titled Faster, Higher, Farther: The Volkswagen Scandal, aims to shed light on the events leading up to the company's admission in September 2015.

Now The New York Times has published a passage adapted from the book, which gives a brief look at what readers can expect from author Jack Ewing.

What's most remarkable is the intricacy of the operation to cover up the polluting diesel vehicles. . . .

The book will go on sale May 23, 2017, offering much more detail into the entire Volkswagen diesel emission cheating scandal.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

User avatar
IssacZachary
Forum Supporter
Posts: 503
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:57 am
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 420789
Location: Gunnison, CO, USA

Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Sun May 14, 2017 10:18 pm

2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

tattoogunman
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:17 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Jun 2016
Location: Plano, Texas

Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Mon May 15, 2017 2:32 pm

IssacZachary wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
I get upwards of 55mpg going 75mph in my 1985 VW diesel, sometimes over 60mpg if I'm careful with the pedal. I kind of think something must be wrong with technology in the sense that very few cars can attain that kind of fuel mileage today.


And that is the crux of the issue why people liked the diesels. I had a 2000 TDI Jetta and I easily got anywhere from 625 to 650 miles out of a tank and that was in Utah going up and down mountains, etc. Nobody bought/buys those cars because they are supposedly "clean", they bought them because they got phenomenal gas mileage compared to their unleaded counterparts.

I'll be brutally honest - as much as I have become interested in EVs and am considering one for my next car, I simply cannot afford them right now (new prices that is). I was actually kind of hoping a ton of used TDI VW cars would start showing up on lots at cheap prices after the buy backs so that maybe I could get back into one again. However, it sounds like most are going to be scrapped or shipped out of the country (if what I have heard is correct).

SageBrush
Posts: 866
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Mon May 15, 2017 3:29 pm

A used Prius is a better value than a used Diesel because they are way more reliable and similar or better fuel economy and price. The trade-off is less torque. The notion that Diesels got stellar fuel economy based on range per tank is a crock. That was true because the car has a big tank.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6576
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Mon May 15, 2017 3:48 pm

tattoogunman wrote:
IssacZachary wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
I get upwards of 55mpg going 75mph in my 1985 VW diesel, sometimes over 60mpg if I'm careful with the pedal. I kind of think something must be wrong with technology in the sense that very few cars can attain that kind of fuel mileage today.


And that is the crux of the issue why people liked the diesels. I had a 2000 TDI Jetta and I easily got anywhere from 625 to 650 miles out of a tank and that was in Utah going up and down mountains, etc. Nobody bought/buys those cars because they are supposedly "clean", they bought them because they got phenomenal gas mileage compared to their unleaded counterparts.

I'll be brutally honest - as much as I have become interested in EVs and am considering one for my next car, I simply cannot afford them right now (new prices that is). I was actually kind of hoping a ton of used TDI VW cars would start showing up on lots at cheap prices after the buy backs so that maybe I could get back into one again. However, it sounds like most are going to be scrapped or shipped out of the country (if what I have heard is correct).


I didn't write any of the quoted material. Please fix that. I loathe diesels.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

User avatar
IssacZachary
Forum Supporter
Posts: 503
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:57 am
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 420789
Location: Gunnison, CO, USA

Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Mon May 15, 2017 7:38 pm

SageBrush wrote:A used Prius is a better value than a used Diesel because they are way more reliable and similar or better fuel economy and price. The trade-off is less torque. The notion that Diesels got stellar fuel economy based on range per tank is a crock. That was true because the car has a big tank.


I don't know if I can agree with all that. Not that I don't respect or appreciate your posts or that you have to agree with me. ;)

The main reason I haven't gotten rid on my ol' 1985 diesel is because the thing just won't die. It had over 400,000 miles when I bought it and it still runs like a champ. And no, I haven't done a thing to the engine except change oil and filters. In the 8 years that I've owned it the car has never let me down. I think it's because it's just to simple. The only things that could go wrong with the engine is either the mechanical fuel injecting pump, the glow plugs, the timing belt, the oil pump or the cooling system. There are no sensors or electronics of any sort to go wrong.

Of course things may be much different for modern diesels. They are probably much like gasoline engines. Prior to the Leaf I had a Chevy Astro with 160,000 miles that started acting up. Even with the Factory Repair Manual and a GM Tech 2 diagnostics tool I could not get that engine to run right even after replacing nearly the whole engine and everything that goes on it.

I think hybrids are a good idea, but there are a few things that scare me away from them. One is the off-on way they work. Ever since I was a boy I've always been told that the hardest thing on an engine is starting it. If you look at any owners manual you can let engine maintenance go well over twice the distance if you use the vehicle for long drives instead of short ones. The more you turn the engine on and off the more frequently you're supposed to change the oil and filters. Now add to that that you also have two propulsion systems to go wrong on a hybrid. I'm going on 500,000 miles in the diesel. I'm really hoping that a bunch of hybrid owner's will respond to this post and state that they have 200k, 300k, or more miles on their hybrids and are still running strong without ever having any major issues.

But in favor of hybrids there is the fact that some hybrids, especially plugin hybrids, end up using the ICE considerably less. That can add reliability and longevity to the car.

As far as fuel mileage in a diesel goes I can attest that it's not just the fuel tank size. My mother-in-law lives in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico. Go to any map and you'll see that it's at least 590 miles between Gunnison and Juarez. Yet I've done that trip several times in the ol' diesel with its 12 gallon fuel tank, fueling first in Gunnison, getting to the in-laws, then drive around Juarez with them for a week Then I fill up (630 miles after the last time I filled up) and drive all the way to Gunnison! And once I get to Gunnison I fill up and check what I used: Less than 21 gallons for a >1,200 mile trip. The fact that I've done this trip every year for the past 8 years and have always gotten repeatable results is proof that diesel can be very efficient.

Not that hybrids can't achieve that kind of highway mileage and get better town mileage at the same time. Part of the reason is because hybrids have their engines sized for fuel mileage, not acceleration. They get their acceleration from the combination of the electric and gasoline motors. But that can cause a problem here in the mountains. Quite a few hybrid owners that I know complain that while going up mountain passes the battery quickly depletes and then they're stuck with only the gutless, feels-like-it-won't-make-it, tiny gasoline engine, whereas diesel engines can be sized for good continuous acceleration and yet still get steller highway fuel mileage.

Now add diesel and hybrid together and you get a VW XL1 capable of getting over 130mpg.
Last edited by IssacZachary on Mon May 15, 2017 8:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6576
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Mon May 15, 2017 8:07 pm

I was also taught in automotive classes that starting an engine produces the most wear, but hybrids have two things working to minimize that: synthetic oil and a hot engine. Most wear actually occurs when you start a cold engine, not when you restart a hot one. As long as the oil film hasn't drained off the contact surfaces, the wear is negligible.

The diesel in your '85 VW was also used in Volvos of the era. It had to work a lot harder in the heavier cars, and suffered failures more often. The degree to which an engine is stressed in daily use goes a long way toward determining its longevity.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

User avatar
IssacZachary
Forum Supporter
Posts: 503
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2017 9:57 am
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 420789
Location: Gunnison, CO, USA

Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Mon May 15, 2017 8:53 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:I was also taught in automotive classes that starting an engine produces the most wear, but hybrids have two things working to minimize that: synthetic oil and a hot engine. Most wear actually occurs when you start a cold engine, not when you restart a hot one. As long as the oil film hasn't drained off the contact surfaces, the wear is negligible.

The diesel in your '85 VW was also used in Volvos of the era. It had to work a lot harder in the heavier cars, and suffered failures more often. The degree to which an engine is stressed in daily use goes a long way toward determining its longevity.

I've always driven my diesel full throttle. It hasn't failed me yet, although I wish it would so I could have a reason to buy a newer car, like a Prius, a Mitsubishi Mirage or a Ford Fiesta Ecoboost. Maybe I should stop using synthetic oil and plugging in the block heater.

But another thing is that it's the high RPM's that also hurt engines. I floor it but keep the RPM's down. I thought the Volvos had 6 cylinder diesels, not the little 1.6L 4 cylinders.

I do see a future for diesels that gasoline won't be able to fill. There already exists technology to filter certain gases completely out of the air using very little energy. Let's say you could filter all the nitrogen out of the air and use pure oxygen, carbon dioxide and water vapor as the working fluids. NOx emissions would be completely eliminated and the higher oxygen content would virtually eliminate all other emissions. And then, since it's a diesel, the compression ratio could be increased to whatever is mechanically possible raising efficiency through the roof. This is something that can't be done in a gasoline engine (for an example my prehistoric diesel engine has a CR of 23:1 whereas there are very few gasoline engines with CR's as high as 17:1.) Then make the engine completely out of ceramic material that doesn't need lubrication nor cooling (which has already been done). The resulting efficiency would be potentially as high as 70%, dropping CO2 emissions considerably. That would be impossible with gasoline.
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

LeftieBiker
Posts: 6576
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Mon May 15, 2017 10:53 pm

I thought the Volvos had 6 cylinder diesels, not the little 1.6L 4 cylinders.


Yeah, you're right. They used the D24, from VW trucks. I had forgotten that the rabbit had a diesel four. My memory is getting terrible. The six suffered more wear if run hard when cold.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

SageBrush
Posts: 866
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Tue May 16, 2017 4:01 am

@IssacZachary said
"I think hybrids are a good idea, but there are a few things that scare me away from them. One is the off-on way they work."

I know the Prius best since I have owned 4 of them since 2004. The lesson you learned regarding wear and tear on the engine from starts does not really apply to the Prius (and I presume other hybrids) because the programming uses the traction battery to gently start the piston moving before fuel is injected. The proof is in the pudding: Prius reliability is fantastic. 200k miles is nothing. The Prius forum have a couple of people who use the car for courier type duties who have reported over 500k miles, though I have also read that oil consumption goes up around the 400k mile mark. One thing is true though: the aluminium engine and small oil sump make the engine intolerant of owner abuse. It is a bad idea to overheat the engine by running low on oil. I got in the habit of checking the oil level once a month out of an abundance of caution.

Particularly in the Gen1 model, running out of traction energy on climbs was a real thing I also experienced but I soon learned how to avoid the issue by forcing the car to mostly use the engine early in the climb instead of draining the battery. So gutless was/is not a problem for me, although you should not expect to pass other cars on climbs.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

Return to “Business / Economy and Politics”