tattoogunman
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Tue May 16, 2017 6:31 am

I had looked into how much damage automatic state/stop tech caused compared to a traditional engine a while back. Essentially, everything I found pointed to the fact that the jury was still out since it's still relatively new and there hasn't been enough data collected. However, it did show that the average number of automotive starts was increased exponentially (like from a few thousand over the life of the car to well into the hundreds of thousands of starts with the start/stop tech) with the systems. Again, those were based off of averages and I honestly cannot remember where I found that at. Basically what I found was that there really has not appeared to be a problem with the tech thus far.

As for hybrid reliability, Toyota seems to have done it right as I have not read any significant problems. Honda, on the other hand, has not. I bought my wife a used '09 Honda Civic Hybrid after doing a little bit of research (not enough as it turned out) and two days after we bought it, the battery pack died. Luckily for us it was a significant problem that Honda was aware of and Honda had extended the warranties on them to 100,000 miles. So we had a happy ending in that the dealer replaced it no questions asked. If it had not been for that warranty coverage, we would have been hosed as a new pack cost something like $1000 or more. However, given this issue with Honda, it does show there is a potential issue down the road. It's also one of the reasons why I have reservations about EVs in general because if I were to pick up a used Leaf (since I cannot afford new), there is no way I would ever be able to cover the cost of a replacement battery pack.

SageBrush
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Tue May 16, 2017 7:09 am

tattoogunman wrote: It's also one of the reasons why I have reservations about EVs in general because if I were to pick up a used Leaf (since I cannot afford new), there is no way I would ever be able to cover the cost of a replacement battery pack.

One lesser known trick is to put aside the money you save in fueling for the day you want a new pack.

I bought my used LEAF for ~ $8000. A replacement pack costs $6000.
That should be good for 10 years for most people, or about $120 a month. If you save around $50 a month on fuel, an equivalent ICE vehicle would have to cost around $70 a month.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

tattoogunman
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Wed May 17, 2017 6:22 am

SageBrush wrote:
tattoogunman wrote: It's also one of the reasons why I have reservations about EVs in general because if I were to pick up a used Leaf (since I cannot afford new), there is no way I would ever be able to cover the cost of a replacement battery pack.

One lesser known trick is to put aside the money you save in fueling for the day you want a new pack.

I bought my used LEAF for ~ $8000. A replacement pack costs $6000.
That should be good for 10 years for most people, or about $120 a month. If you save around $50 a month on fuel, an equivalent ICE vehicle would have to cost around $70 a month.


Not a bad idea, but I have been playing around with my numbers the last few days regarding maintenance, fueling, etc. Because I drive my current car so little as it is (Fiat 500), I do my own work on the car, and it is very economical (36-38mpg), I figure any money I would realistically save in fuel costs would be offset by how much my insurance would go up if I were to get an EV.

I have been looking at the Volt, Bolt, and Leaf and all of them will make my insurance go up anywhere from $500 to $600 a year. As it is, I am only spending approximately $500 to $600 a year in gas (at current prices), so I would essentially be at a break even point if I got an EV. In all actuality, it would actually cost me more to get an EV right now because I would end up having to pay for my electricity to charge the car and that would push me past the break even point when comparing my current car to an EV. Granted, my required maintenance would go down, but I am only spending around $50 to $100 a year for maintenance on my Fiat, so that isn't a huge savings.

There are very few public charging stations in my area. The only chargers available on my campus (born again college student in my 40's) require the "premium" parking permit (which is BS) to use and that would also cost me more money since I usually park out in the nosebleed area and walk a few miles a day on campus.

Here is an approximate (stress approximate/average here) breakdown of my yearly car usage for reference - again, I am sort of an extreme conservative case at the moment:

Miles driven per year - appx. 7000

Average fuel fill ups - appx. 16 fill ups per year (I only have to get gas every 3-4 weeks) at a cost of appx. $500 (that's at a rounded up average of $30 a fill up since the car requires premium, but there are times where I don't fill the car all the way up)

Maintenance - on average, maybe $50 a year for oil/filter change since I am only averaging one a year. I have had to replace two tires and the spark plugs if you want to factor that in (still not much).

Current Insurance (for my car, not including the wife's car) - $1450 per year (it's high where I live thanks to this area being in the top 10 for accidents in America. Could get a bit cheaper, but I also carry full coverage and gap insurance).

So playing around with those numbers, on a very loose average, I am spending around $2500 a year on gas/maintenance. If I replace this car with an EV, I would save the $500/year on gas, but that would be negated by insurance going up. Now, the maintenance costs would go away (sans tires eventually), but that would still only be saving me around $50 a year or so and I would then have to factor in what electric would cost me (not much, but I am still not going to see fantastical savings).

This is why the whole EV thing has been driving me nuts. I'm the ideal candidate for one, it's just not cost effective for me at the moment to make the switch. I'm due to graduate at the end of this year and more than likely I am still going to be working at someplace within a ten mile round trip commute from my home. I just cannot justify the expense and that isn't even factoring in the purchase price of the EV to begin with.

GetOffYourGas
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Wed May 17, 2017 7:04 am

It seems to me that as a college student (regardless of age) with a working car, buying any car new or used, gas or electric, should be off the table. Use your Fiat to get around. When you graduate and return to the work force, re-evaluate your needs against what is available then. Yes, I understand the temptation to move to an EV. But it just doesn't sound like you are in a good position to do so right now.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

SageBrush
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Location: Colorado

Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Wed May 17, 2017 8:20 am

And *additional* car will cost more in insurance -- that much is clear and not related to EV.
So either buy the EV as a *replacement* for one of the cars you own,
OR buy a used EV with low insurance value and dump the gap and collision/Comp

The last choice works if you are a safe driver.
I insure our LEAF for about $18 a month. This includes 1M/300k liability, and uninsured motorist (UI)

Your problem isn't the cheap LEAF, it is getting out of your Fiat.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

GRA
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Wed May 17, 2017 4:13 pm

For the OP, if you've got a round trip commute of 10 miles or less and don't need to travel on freeways to do it, consider a bicycle. A bike remains the most energy-efficient land transportation yet invented, will save you far more than any car, have zero emissions (depending on your diet ;) ), and be better for your health.

If you don't want to provide all the energy to propel yourself, get a pedelec (Pedal Electric) which will still cost you far less than a car, can be easily charged off any 120V/15A receptacle, and is light enough to take indoors. If you've got to carry it up/down stairs at home/work, consider a model where the battery can be easily detached and taken with you to charge. If interested, see this thread for a start: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=10256

Another option is an electric scooter or motorcycle. In any case, keep the 500 for long distance and inclement weather. And if you do start to ride to work and begin using your car intermittently, consider changing over to Pay-As-You-Drive insurance if it's offered in your area. As my car often sits in my driveway for weeks at a time, switching to PAYD has saved me about half of what my insurance used to cost, and gives me an extra financial incentive to walk/bike/use public transit at every opportunity.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Wed May 24, 2017 6:55 pm

Via GCC, just in case anyone hasn't heard:
US sues Fiat Chrysler over diesel emissions
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/05/20170523-fca.html
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

cwerdna
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu May 25, 2017 2:03 am

IssacZachary wrote:I'm really hoping that a bunch of hybrid owner's will respond to this post and state that they have 200k, 300k, or more miles on their hybrids and are still running strong without ever having any major issues.

http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespan/Operating_costs has numerous examples of long-lived Priuses.

I though this was old news: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/rese ... ting-code/ but apparently was published on 5/24.

It contains a pointer to a paper on this: https://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2017/papers/101.pdf. I've only skimmed bits of this. Hope it's not a repost.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

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IssacZachary
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu May 25, 2017 10:27 am

cwerdna wrote:
IssacZachary wrote:I'm really hoping that a bunch of hybrid owner's will respond to this post and state that they have 200k, 300k, or more miles on their hybrids and are still running strong without ever having any major issues.

http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespan/Operating_costs has numerous examples of long-lived Priuses.

Thanks!

That does help change my perspective towards Prii, and even makes me think about trading my Leaf and VW diesel in for one.

Financially, the Leaf and the VW Golf diesel make a great pair. The Leaf me cost $8,000 and the VW $600. I get between 2.5 to 4.5 m/kWh in the Leaf around town and between 50 to 60mpg in the VW on the highway. Both are very low maintenance and very reliable. Basically I change the oil and air filter in the VW once a year and the brake fluid in both ever other year.

The Prius would get much better emissions than the 1985 VW diesel, hands down. Pricewise, I'm betting I could find a use Prius for around the price my Leaf and my Golf cost together, $8,600 (not that I would ever find a direct trade, although I could try.) Fuel-mileagewise, an older used Prius won't be getting between 2.5 to 4.5 miles/kWh (50 to 100 mpg-e?) around town. But it might get close to 50 to 60mpg on the highway, plus the fact I'd be paying insurance on only one car. Depending on the needed octane, I might be paying more or less per gallon than I do for diesel. (It's right now between regular and mid-grade in price here.)

I do wonder how the cold here would affect a Prius. I get as low as 2.5 m/kWh in my Leaf in the winter. The diesel is terrible at heating the cabin around town; the engine will cool down with the heater on unless I'm on the highway. We have a long winter. Hopefully a Prius won't get less than 30mpg around town at around -30°F.

I need to start looking though. If I could find a Prius, let's say, in the >$5,000 range I'd just replace my diesel and use the Prius for long trips and the Leaf for around town. That being said, any modern gasoline (or non-VW diesel with good emissions) that gets great fuel mileage on the highway (at least 45mpg) and wouldn't price me out of keeping my Leaf would definitely be on my radar.


cwerdna wrote:I though this was old news: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/rese ... ting-code/ but apparently was published on 5/24.

It contains a pointer to a paper on this: https://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2017/papers/101.pdf. I've only skimmed bits of this. Hope it's not a repost.

Yes. Very interesting. As this points out it's the NOx emissions that are the problem in modern diesels. With diesel running super lean, it's very difficult to control NOx emissions. Hopefully an economic, yet effective solution will be found. Such a solution wouldn't only improve diesel emissions, but could be used to improve gasoline emissions and efficiency, since in order to lower NOx emissions, gasoline has to run richer than what would be the most efficient.

For an example, if there were a way to economically filter all the nitrogen out of the air. NOx could not form in the engine. The higher O2 saturation could potentially eliminate all particulate, HC and CO emissions in both diesel and gasoline engines. If the O2 saturation would be too high (burning the oil off of the cylinder walls), it could be reduced using cooled exhaust gasses. But by that time hopefully we'd be using ceramic engines that don't need lubrication.

I've often though of strapping an O2 tank to my diesel and deleting the air intake, only mixing cooled exhaust gases via a large diesel EGR cooler with the oxygen from the O2 tank.

Or better yet. Skip ICE entirely and go with MAGLEV roads.
2013 SL 45,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

GRA
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu May 25, 2017 3:42 pm

cwerdna wrote:
IssacZachary wrote:I'm really hoping that a bunch of hybrid owner's will respond to this post and state that they have 200k, 300k, or more miles on their hybrids and are still running strong without ever having any major issues.

http://prius.wikia.com/wiki/Lifespan/Operating_costs has numerous examples of long-lived Priuses.

I though this was old news: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/rese ... ting-code/ but apparently was published on 5/24.

It contains a pointer to a paper on this: https://www.ieee-security.org/TC/SP2017/papers/101.pdf. I've only skimmed bits of this. Hope it's not a repost.

No, this is new. GCC has a similar article, which includes a bit more detail without having to wade through the IEEE paper:
International team uncovers mechanisms of VW, Fiat software defeat device code
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/05 ... -ucsd.html
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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