SageBrush
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Wed Sep 06, 2017 6:59 pm

IssacZachary wrote:As for me I've been seriously thinking of converting to CNG for my ol' VW diesel now that there's a CNG station in town. But the conversion costs aren't cheap. Plus if I get my van I'd probably sell the VW.

Ballpark price ?
How far could you go before you have to turn around, presuming no NG at your destination ?
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
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IssacZachary
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:40 am

SageBrush wrote:
IssacZachary wrote:As for me I've been seriously thinking of converting to CNG for my ol' VW diesel now that there's a CNG station in town. But the conversion costs aren't cheap. Plus if I get my van I'd probably sell the VW.

Ballpark price ?
How far could you go before you have to turn around, presuming no NG at your destination ?

Mainly the DOT approved CNG tank, $1,300 for 13 GGE plus another couple hundred for the regulator. Which should take me at least 400 total miles, plenty in range between CNG stations. But that's figuring on getting around a 30 mpg of gasoline equivalent. Currently I can get 700 miles out of a full tank of diesel, close to 60mpg going highway speeds. After everything is said and done I can see paying $2,000 or more for the complete conversion, including an added catalytic converter. Or I could buy a small 6 GGE tank for around $600 and then later on buy another one and have 12 GGE total. That would take $700 out of the initial price making it around $1,600 for the conversion. The engine is all mechanical so the CNG injection system would be fairly simple and cheap.

Looking at the CNG infrastructure it looks like there are plenty of stations. About as good as the Tesla super charging network. Except if I converted the engine it would be dual fuel compatible, so if I needed to go where there isn't any CNG it would still be possible on diesel. Hence the possibility of starting with a smaller and cheaper CNG tank.

CNG can be dirt cheap. I think I pay not much more than a dollar per gasoline gallon equivalent at home. However, a compressor to use my household NG in my car would set me back another few hundred dollars. I probably never would get the money back invested into the whole system. But at least the emissions would be cleaner on the ol' diesel car. I've also thought of doing this if I made my ol' Golf into a pusher trailer for the Leaf. Then it would be tri-fuel, electric, natural gas and diesel!
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:49 am

It seems to me that high grade biodiesel would accomplish your emissions goals with less modification - mainly a small second fuel tank and mixing valve.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

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SageBrush
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:53 am

@IsaacZachary,
Interesting, thanks!

Unless your LEAF is running off PV, the NG conversion is actually a better environmental choice that our Colorado grid, and it has the same home fueling convenience ;-)

Could your converted car also take propane in a pinch ?

Where do you place the tank in the car ? I have read that modern gasoline car tanks are plastic but I presume that is not possible for NG ? I'm just guessing based on the price.
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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IssacZachary
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:12 am

SageBrush wrote:@IsaacZachary,
Interesting, thanks!

Unless your LEAF is running off PV, the NG conversion is actually a better environmental choice that our Colorado grid, and it has the same home fueling convenience ;-)

Could your converted car also take propane in a pinch ?

Where do you place the tank in the car ? I have read that modern gasoline car tanks are plastic but I presume that is not possible for NG ? I'm just guessing based on the price.


I think going solar could be cheaper. Or close in price. It would just be hard to make portable and practical.

As for propane there are several factors to think about.

If I did a 100% conversion to CNG I'd be able to use propane only if I lowered the compression ratio sufficiently, perhaps with a thicker head gasket, or some head machining. CNG would require a lower compression ratio too. The one problem is that CNG tolerates and benefits from a higher compression ratio than LP does. In a full conversion I'd also have to tap out the injector ports and install sparkplugs and also add on an ignition system, probably a wasted spark digital system like one made by CB Racing or MegaJolt. That would put me back another thousand or so and the system would not be able to use diesel. Propane would also require it's own tank for the propane.

If the conversion used idle diesel injection as the "spark" I would still have compression issues. Lowering the compression ratio of course would make it less efficient on diesel and also possibly harder to start. One idea I had was to use water injection instead of lowering the compression ratio which would also lower NOx and CO emissions even more, although that would have to be protected from freezing during the winter. Then again, with cold winter air it might not be needed. Also, if the engine is used only for a steady, low RPM, low load use, like as a pusher trailer with a preset load and used only in top gear, there is a chance that the air-fuel ratio of the CNG would be low enough that no engine knock or damage would occur, even without lowering the compression ratio or adding water injection. But with propane there would be more of a chance of harming the engine. However, with such an engine it would be very easy to go back to using diesel in a pinch, and only extremely small amounts of diesel would be needed for igniting the CNG when running off of it.

Another conversion is to fumigate the intake with either propane or natural gas in small amounts and use mainly diesel as the driving fuel. In small amounts there isn't any possibility of harmful engine knock, and the natural gas or propane in such small amounts will still help improve emissions. But other than that it would still be a mostly diesel engine, using perhaps one gasoline gallon equivalent of gaseous fuel for every three or four gallons of diesel.

LeftieBiker wrote:It seems to me that high grade biodiesel would accomplish your emissions goals with less modification - mainly a small second fuel tank and mixing valve.


Biodiesel would require more work on a regular basis. There aren't any stations in Gunnison that sell it. So I'd have to make do with used veggie oil from restaurants. Plus the stuff doesn't work well in the cold. I'd have to heat my whole fuel system. As it is, when it drops down below -30*F it is common for the regular diesel to gel, especially if I'm using the summer blend or from another town where it's warmer. I might have to put a heat exchanger on the exhaust to warm the engine coolant and fuel since this little diesel doesn't put out a lot of heat. I guess the thing is a bit too efficient. I can warm up the engine (and it has a good thermostat, trust me) and drive it around town and watch the temperature needle drop and it start blowing cold air out the of the heater, although on the highway the heater does pretty well until I start down a long grade.
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GRA
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:57 pm

Via GCC:
DUH says testing indicates use of defeat device in BMW 320d diesel
l http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/12/20171207-duh.html

. . . According to the investigation, not only the speed, but also the torque is used as a parameter for this shutdown. The software expert Lothar Daub explained that EGR is switched off above 3,500 rpm; this configuration was stored in the software of the vehicle, with a a map and corresponding data. Such a speed is reached at 47 km/h in second gear, 70km/h in third gear, 87 km/h in fourth gear and 112 km/h in fifth gear.

The European Type Approval Regulation 715/2007 explicitly includes in its definition of “defeat devices” the engine speed (RPM) as a parameter for reducing the effectiveness of the emission control system during normal vehicle operation. General activation of defeat devices is inadmissible under this regulation.

DUH noted that on 27 September 2017, Harald Krüger, CEO of the BMW Group, said: “We did not manipulate the vehicles, we have clean diesel, and they are the best in the world, there is no defeat device at the BMW Group.” This full-bodied promise is in clear contradiction to the results of the exhaust and software investigations of the BMW 320d, DUH charged. . . .

Emissions were found to be up to 7.2 times the standard.

Via GCR:
VW Dieselgate exec Schmidt gets maximum jail sentence: 7 years
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114204_vw-dieselgate-exec-schmidt-gets-maximum-jail-sentence-7-years

He was also given the max. $400k fine. It's a pity that he's likely to be the only senior VW exec to see the inside of a U.S. prison.
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arnis
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:18 pm

This is how EGR works. It is always reduced/disabled at higher load/torque.
The fact that NEDC cycle is not real life scenario, is a reason, why real emissions
do not follow NEDC cycle emissions. According to most other observations,
ALL manufacturers had around 700% emissions compared to limit.
VW had 2000%, this is why DieselGate was born. But all, I repeat, ALL, others
had around 7 times more. As BMW 320d is in that category, nothing new was told.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:38 pm

VW didn't just design engines that would do better on the test cycle than in the real world, as most manufacturers do. They designed a 'cheating algorithm' that turned the emissions controls off or greatly reduced them during the test cycle. If you can't or won't see the difference there, there isn't much point in arguing about it.
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:13 pm

arnis wrote:This is how EGR works. It is always reduced/disabled at higher load/torque.
The fact that NEDC cycle is not real life scenario, is a reason, why real emissions
do not follow NEDC cycle emissions. According to most other observations,
ALL manufacturers had around 700% emissions compared to limit.
VW had 2000%, this is why DieselGate was born. But all, I repeat, ALL, others
had around 7 times more. As BMW 320d is in that category, nothing new was told.


Are you trying to make this defensible? WOW!! just WOW!

My take? VW is done, who's next?
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SageBrush
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Re: Volkswagen Group Massive Emissions Fraud Scheme

Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:11 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:My take? VW is done, who's next?

Are you talking about the VW that is up is ~ 75% in stock price since dieselgate knocked down the stock price ?
2013 Model 'S' with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California with 63.9 Ahr after 22k miles
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado

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