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TonyWilliams
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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Fri Apr 29, 2016 5:19 pm

OK so I have read those plans and as always I'm doubtful that H2 will reach anything even close to four dollars per KG.

But, as long as there is a metric to be met there will be no shortage of taxpayer dollars thrown at it. We just have to suspend the normal economic pricing and believe that the taxpayer can make this all happen.

I'm a bit shocked that these government agencies are not working their tails off to bring the cost of electricity down? I wonder why that doesn't appear to be an issue?

GRA
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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Sat Apr 30, 2016 1:57 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:OK so I have read those plans and as always I'm doubtful that H2 will reach anything even close to four dollars per KG.

But, as long as there is a metric to be met there will be no shortage of taxpayer dollars thrown at it. We just have to suspend the normal economic pricing and believe that the taxpayer can make this all happen.

I'm a bit shocked that these government agencies are not working their tails off to bring the cost of electricity down? I wonder why that doesn't appear to be an issue?

Perhaps because they're all continuing to subsidize EV charging stations, like the recent decision of the state to complete the West Coast Electric Highway here, or any number of other causes deemed worthy of government funding.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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TonyWilliams
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Location: San Diego
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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Sat Apr 30, 2016 2:50 pm

GRA wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:OK so I have read those plans and as always I'm doubtful that H2 will reach anything even close to four dollars per KG.

But, as long as there is a metric to be met there will be no shortage of taxpayer dollars thrown at it. We just have to suspend the normal economic pricing and believe that the taxpayer can make this all happen.

I'm a bit shocked that these government agencies are not working their tails off to bring the cost of electricity down? I wonder why that doesn't appear to be an issue?

Perhaps because they're all continuing to subsidize EV charging stations, like the recent decision of the state to complete the West Coast Electric Highway here, or any number of other causes deemed worthy of government funding.


The hundred million dollar funding for hydrogen infrastructure blows away anything the state of California is doing for electric vehicles by a very large margin, and that doesn't count all the money that was previously spent for hydrogen.

The funding for the West Coast Electric Highway does nothing to the cost of electricity... for the most part, electricity cost isn't a problem at all. Conversely, hydrogen cars need both a grossly expensive infrastructure and a grossly expensive annual cost just to maintain that infrastructure, in addition to a breathtaking reduction in cost of the actual commodity which is hydrogen. To maintain a typical DC charger might require blowing dirt out of it, maybe changing some fans or air cleaners, or swapping out the charge cable or plug after it gets broken. Costs that are typically in the hundreds to maybe one thousand or so dollars.

Electric vehicle DC charging infrastructure is an order of magnitude cheaper to install, to maintain and to power the vehicle. It would probably be pointless to debate with you about the literally tens of thousands of electric powered vehicles on the road in California versus the dozens to maybe 100 hydrogen cars might be a "thing". It's nearly criminal to spend $100 million for hydrogen when we already have so many Electric Vehicles without proper and complete infrastructure.

So, as is so frequently the case, your statement has no merit. The cost of electricity doesn't have to come down in order for electric vehicles to be competitive. The state of California doesn't need to subsidize it. The auto manufacturers don't need to subsidize it, Hydrogen, however, needs a breathtaking freefall of cost that is just not going to happen except in the minds for the starry eyed dreamers like you.

All of that is not to suggest that DC charging doesn't have significant challenges and cost issues. Those issues just look pathetically small in comparison to anything with hydrogen in its name.

Let me know if you ever see a DC charger blowup, like hydrogen can , mmmm kay? It seems even the people that install that hydrogen stuff think it's dangerous:

"Linde, which was supposed to build the station (near SFO airport), "rejected airport officials' demand to accept full legal responsibility for any mishaps on the wedge-shaped site near Millbrae Avenue," writes the Mercury News."

I wonder why? I thought you said hydrogen was safe ? What could possibly be the concern ? Certainly every DC charger installed has somebody who is responsible for it and will accept responsibility for any mishaps. It's odd that the hydrogen folks don't seem to think that way.

Oh well, I'm sure we'll just keep spending money... no big deal.

GRA
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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Sat Apr 30, 2016 3:38 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:
GRA wrote:
TonyWilliams wrote:OK so I have read those plans and as always I'm doubtful that H2 will reach anything even close to four dollars per KG.

But, as long as there is a metric to be met there will be no shortage of taxpayer dollars thrown at it. We just have to suspend the normal economic pricing and believe that the taxpayer can make this all happen.

I'm a bit shocked that these government agencies are not working their tails off to bring the cost of electricity down? I wonder why that doesn't appear to be an issue?

Perhaps because they're all continuing to subsidize EV charging stations, like the recent decision of the state to complete the West Coast Electric Highway here, or any number of other causes deemed worthy of government funding.

The hundred million dollar funding for hydrogen infrastructure blows away anything the state of California is doing for electric vehicles by a very large margin, and that doesn't count all the money that was previously spent for hydrogen.

Tony, it's up to $20 million/year for up to 10 years, not $200 million in a lump sum. IIRR, the current year's H2 station grant total out for bid is between $16-17m. The amount the state is subsidizing the completion of the West Coast Electric Highway is just under $8.9 million, all in one year. That's just one of the subsidies that PEVs and charging have gotten in California, from local, state, and federal governments. The cars themselves have rebates under the AFVRP, which is now also being applied to FCEVs, albeit in much smaller numbers to date. Virtually all the public EV chargers here have been installed with some level of public subsidy, as were many of the private EVSEs (don't remember whether they currently qualify for any tax breaks etc.). That's ignoring the amount over the decades that California has put into subsidizing PEV R&D: I mean, I remember when Calstart was established (1992). I very much doubt that the state has put more money into H2 infrastructure/FCEVs/R&D than they have into PEVs and their infrastructure over the years - over the past couple of years the announcement of grants etc. have seemed to me to be roughly in the same ballpark, although I haven't totted them up.

TonyWilliams wrote: The funding for the West Coast Electric Highway does nothing to the cost of electricity... for the most part, electricity cost isn't a problem at all. Conversely, hydrogen cars need both a grossly expensive infrastructure and a grossly expensive annual cost just to maintain that infrastructure, in addition to a breathtaking reduction in cost of the actual commodity which is hydrogen. To maintain a typical DC charger might require blowing dirt out of it, maybe changing some fans or air cleaners, or swapping out the charge cable or plug after it gets broken. Costs that are typically in the hundreds to maybe one thousand or so dollars.

Electric vehicle DC charging infrastructure is an order of magnitude cheaper to install, to maintain and to power the vehicle. It would probably be pointless to debate with you about the literally tens of thousands of electric powered vehicles on the road in California versus the dozens to maybe 100 hydrogen cars might be a "thing". It's nearly criminal to spend $100 million for hydrogen when we already have so many Electric Vehicles without proper and complete infrastructure.

So, as is so frequently the case, your statement has no merit. The cost of electricity doesn't have to come down in order for electric vehicles to be competitive. The state of California doesn't need to subsidize it. The auto manufacturers don't need to subsidize it, Hydrogen, however, needs a breathtaking freefall of cost that is just not going to happen except in the minds for the starry eyed dreamers like you.

And yet. the state of California continues to subsidize the cost of the PEVs, and sales remain very slow, despite a population more disposed to look favorably on them than the general American public. But I fully agree that it's time to remove subsidies for PEVs, and let them compete. I was very happy to see that the legislature has so far resisted the urge to add any more green HOV stickers for PEVs; I just wish they'd stop issuing White stickers to BEVs (and any other AFVs including FCEVs) as well. So far, no one has yet figured out how to make public charging profitable; NRG, which you use, is trying to divest themselves of eVgo because the division is a money loser. CCGI is a basket case. I don't know about Greenlots; are they even public so they need to report? Only Chargepoint, who has nothing to do with paying for the electricity but only supplies the equipment and billing services, seems to be profitable.

TonyWilliams wrote: All of that is not to suggest that DC charging doesn't have significant challenges and cost issues. Those issues just look pathetically small in comparison to anything with hydrogen in its name.

Let me know if you ever see a DC charger blowup, like hydrogen can , mmmm kay? It seems even the people that install that hydrogen stuff think it's dangerous:

"Linde, which was supposed to build the station (near SFO airport), "rejected airport officials' demand to accept full legal responsibility for any mishaps on the wedge-shaped site near Millbrae Avenue," writes the Mercury News."

I wonder why? I thought you said hydrogen was safe ? What could possibly be the concern ? Certainly every DC charger installed has somebody who is responsible for it and will accept responsibility for any mishaps. It's odd that the hydrogen folks don't seem to think that way.

Oh well, I'm sure we'll just keep spending money... no big deal.

Tony, when have I ever said that H2 was totally safe? I've said that it can be made 'acceptably' safe, just as gasoline or any other hazardous material (including electricity) can be. It's up to the government agencies as well as public opinion to determine what 'acceptably' safe is, often completely irrationally. I mean, people get all worried about the risks of flying owing to the rare commercial air crash that kills a couple of hundred people at a time, while ignoring the tens of thousands that die in privately-operated auto accidents every year, because the latter only occur in single digits at a time. We've had this particular argument in much more detail multiple times in the H2 thread, so anyone interested can search that for one of the numerous repetitions with cites to H2 explosive/fire testing, safety regs, etc.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Tue May 03, 2016 6:54 pm

Fairfax-LA (W. Hollywood-Beverly Hills) is open. #17 (11th in SoCal).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Tue May 17, 2016 4:49 pm

Per the TrueZero website, Campbell is open (CAFCP lists it as "commissioning", but they're often behind). #18 (5th in Bay Area).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7080
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Tue May 31, 2016 6:03 pm

Via ABG:
FirstElement will hit late-2015 hydrogen station goal by early '17
True Zero is playing catch up with fuel-cell stations in San Diego, Truckee.
http://www.autoblog.com/2016/05/31/firs ... alifornia/

A Southern California-based developer of hydrogen fuel-cell refueling stations says it will reach its late-2015 goal to have 19 operating stations in the Golden State by early 2017. FirstElement Fuel, which is headed by former General Motors and Hyundai executive Joel Ewanick, says equipment-procurement and permitting challenges led to the delay of many of the True Zero-branded stations being built, according to Automotive News. There are currently 13 True Zero stations operating in California, or twice as many as all of California's other retail hydrogen stations combined.

True Zero stations are rebuilt from old gas stations instead of being new-builds, which makes them easier and cheaper to develop. Additionally, FirstElement Fuel struck a deal with Honda to receive a loan to build hydrogen stations throughout California in late 2014. In total, FirstElement has received $13.8 million in loans from Honda and Toyota, which build the Clarity and Mirai fuel-cell vehicles, respectively. FirstElement Fuel has also received $27.6 million in California Energy Commission (CEC) grants. . . .

True Zero's website station map shows 11 stations (5 each in SoCal and NorCal, plus Harris Ranch) currently open and 8 to go, so I'm not sure where the '13' comes from. The original 'Automotive News' article is here: http://www.autonews.com/article/2016053 ... n-stations
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7080
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Tue Jun 21, 2016 8:54 am

Mill Valley, #19 (6th in the Bay Area, and first in Marin County) and Truckee, #20 (better year-round access to North Lake Tahoe/Reno) are now open.

On the negative side, the station in San Juan Capistrano has now been offline for around two weeks. I don't know what the problem is. There are stations in Costa Mesa, UC Irvine and Lake Forest, but none of them are close to I-5, so driving between L.A. and San Diego may involve some inconvenience while SJC is down. The Mirai should be able to make the I-5 L.A. - San Diego round trip fairly easily, but the Tucson could be cutting it close. A station is Del Mar north of S.D. is scheduled to open sometime in the 3rd quarter, which should ease things.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 7080
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Thu Aug 18, 2016 4:26 pm

Playa Del Rey, #21, is now open.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

speedski97
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Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:44 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Dec 2013
Location: Whittier Ca

Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Thu Aug 18, 2016 7:57 pm

As a mechanic for a CNG fleet. The inspections and repairs on the tanks and compressor system, is nuts. Our system is 3600 psi, what would it be at 10,000 psi? How will a fuel cell work with compressor oil in it? If the compressors filter system is not maintained, they push oil into the gas. Our Nissan leafs are so much cheaper to maintain then our Honda CNGs....this is just silly.

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