GRA
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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:59 pm

Lake Forest is open. #14.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.

GRA
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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:48 pm

Santa Barbara is open. #15. [Edit 3/29]: The CAFCP website listing is ambiguous, listing Santa Barbara as 'Soft Opening', but its status as 'commissioning', so until its status changes to 'in commission' assume that it isn't yet open. Apologies for the confusion.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.

GRA
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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:17 pm

Okay, as of today Santa Barbara is officially open per CAFCP's website, so #15. Three more have expected opening dates in May: Hayward (Bay Area), Woodland Hills, and Fairfax-LA. Two more are shown as 'June': Campbell (Bay Area) and Riverside. Three more are shown as 'Q2': Mill Valley (Bay Area), Truckee (Tahoe), and Ontario.

While it's probably possible for a Tucson to make the round trip W. Sacramento - Tahoe - W. Sacramento now, and almost certainly a Mirai could do it with no problem, hopefully Truckee will get finished ahead of some of the others so that Bay Area and Sacramento FCEV owners can take trips up to Tahoe/Reno by the time summer vacation season starts without having to watch their range too closely. We could use some real-world data and some posts on the Tucson and Mirai forums, which have been moribund for months. A greater number of vehicles and stations, especially in the Bay Area, should increase the odds of adding some more contributors to those forums.
Last edited by GRA on Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.

GRA
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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:36 pm

Details of the next round of funding grant requirements for California H2 stations can be found here: http://www.energy.ca.gov/contracts/GFO-15-605/

The minimum technical requirements (purity, capacity, throughput etc.) for this round of stations can be found on page 36 et. seq., but here's the most important from the customer standpoint (Note that this is copied direct from the above government document, so fair use issues don't apply):

    D. MINIMUM DAILY FUELING CAPACITY
    Each station shall have the capability to dispense a minimum average daily capacity of no less than 180 kg. Applicants will be required to adhere to the minimum daily fueling capacity proposed in their application. Minimum daily fueling capacity refers to the station’s capacity to fuel light duty vehicles over a 12 hour period, between 6 a.m. and 6 p.m. on a daily basis.

    E. MINIMUM PEAK FUELING CAPACITY

    1. Minimum Peak Fueling Capacity for 700 Bar Refueling: Each station shall have the capability to provide a minimum of five 4kg H70-T40 fills per hour, back-to-back, without vehicle users having to wait for the station to recharge. Minimum peak fueling capacity refers to the station’s ability to serve peak fueling demand between 6 a.m. to 9 a.m. and 3 p.m. to 6 p.m. . . .

    G. POINT OF SALE (POS) TERMINAL
    The hydrogen refueling station shall include a POS terminal that accepts major credit cards, debit cards, and fleet card payment systems like those commonly used at gas stations.

    1. The POS terminal shall be compatible with card payment systems that use embedded microprocessor chip technology, i.e., Europay, MasterCard, and Visa (EMV) now managed by EMVCo for automated fuel dispensers.

    2. The POS terminal shall use standard, public product codes to specify hydrogen fuel sale type in the transaction record.

Station location for grants:

    A. I-5 CONNECTOR STATION COMPETITION
    Connector stations provide refueling service for FCEV drivers travelling long distances between core markets. Up to one connector station will be funded under this solicitation to strengthen the reliability of the State’s north-south connector route and provide backup to the existing Coalinga station.

    Eligible areas for the I-5 Connector Station Competition are near Wheeler Ridge/Lebec from exit 219 to exit 215 and near Los Banos from exit 407 to exit 391. Proposed connector stations must be located within five miles (driving distance) of the I-5 corridor; however, closer proximity is preferred.

    B. MAIN STATION COMPETITION
    Stations funded under the Main Station Competition will provide refueling service for FCEV drivers in markets needing redundancy and in new and expanding markets. Targeted core market areas are listed in Table 4. While Applicants are highly encouraged to propose stations serving these core market areas, Applicants may propose stations anywhere within California. In general, stations within the targeted core market areas are expected to score higher in the Coverage, Capacity, and Market Viability scoring criterion.

    The targeted core markets reflect analysis from the California Air Resources Board’s 2015 Annual Evaluation of Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle Deployment and Hydrogen Fuel Station Network Development.

    http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/ab ... t_2015.pdf

    Table 4: Core Market Areas Needing Hydrogen Refueling
    Core Market Areas Maximum # of Stations to be Funded*
    San Francisco 2
    Berkeley/Oakland/Walnut Creek/Pleasant Hill 2
    Greater LA/Sherman Oaks/Glendale/Pacific Palisades 1
    San Diego/La Mesa 1
    Torrance/Manhattan Bch/Redondo Bch 1
    South San Diego/Coronado 1
    Pasadena/San Gabriel/Arcadia 1
    Long Bch/Huntington Bch/Buena Park/Fullerton 1
    Santa Cruz 1
    Irvine/Tustin 1
    San Mateo/Palo Alto/Cupertino/Campbell/San Jose 1
    Sacramento/Carmichael 1
    San Clemente 1
    Laguna Beach 1
Grants are structured to incentivize early completion:

This solicitation offers Cap-X incentive funding on a sliding scale to incentivize stations to become operational more quickly. Stations becoming operational within 20 months after Business Meeting approval will earn the maximum incentives offered under this solicitation. Stations becoming operational after 26 months or more following Business Meeting approval will earn no incentives. Incentive funding may be approved at an Energy Commission Business Meeting, but if the target station operational date is not achieved, any approved incentives will not be earned/disbursed.
Stations with larger capacity (300+ kg. vice 180-299 kg.) can receive extra grant money.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.

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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:23 pm

Reposting this from the H2 and FCEV thread, as it probably should have been here in the first place. From the grant proposal mentioned in the immediately preceding post, a listing of in-service and currently planned H2 stations:

    Here's a list of the currently operational and planned California stations as of the date of the document. If I haven't miscounted there are 60, and the list includes both full retail and dem/val stations:

    Station Addresses

    3731 East La Palma Avenue, Anaheim, CA 92806
    145 West Verdugo Avenue, Burbank, CA 91510
    2855 Winchester Boulevard, Campbell, CA 95008
    12600 East End Avenue, Chino, CA 91710
    *24505 West Dorris Avenue, Coalinga, CA 93210
    *2050 Harbor Boulevard, Costa Mesa, CA 92627
    *21865 E. Copley Drive, Diamond Bar, CA 91765
    1172 45th Street, Emeryville, CA 94608
    310 Encinitas Boulevard, Encinitas, CA 92024
    *10844 Ellis Avenue, Fountain Valley, CA 92708
    41700 Grimmer Boulevard, Fremont, CA 94538
    25800 South Western Avenue, Harbor City, CA 90710
    391 West A Street, Hayward, CA 94541
    *19172 Jamboree Road, Irvine, CA 92612
    *550 Foothill Boulevard, La Canada Flintridge, CA 91011
    *20731 Lake Forest Drive, Lake Forest, CA 92630
    15606 Inglewood Avenue, Lawndale, CA 90260
    *3401 Long Beach Boulevard, Long Beach, CA 90807
    2300 Homestead Road, Los Altos, CA 94024
    *11261 Santa Monica Boulevard, Los Angeles, CA 90024
    10400 Aviation Boulevard, Los Angeles, CA, 90046
    7751 Beverly Boulevard, Los Angeles, CA 90036
    5700 Hollywood Boulevard, Los Angeles, CA 90028
    8126 Lincoln Boulevard, Los Angeles, CA 90045
    5151 State University Drive, Los Angeles, CA 90032
    570 Redwood Highway, Mill Valley, CA 94941
    830 Leong Drive, Mountain View, CA 94043
    1600 Jamboree Road, Newport Beach, CA 92660
    1850 Holt Boulevard, Ontario, CA 91761
    1914 East Chapman Avenue, Orange, CA 92867
    3601 El Camino Real, Palo Alto, CA 94036
    28103 Hawthorne Boulevard, Rancho Palos Verdes, CA 90275
    8095 Lincoln Avenue, Riverside, CA 92504
    5060 Redwood Drive, Rohnert Park, CA 94928
    3060 Carmel Valley Road, San Diego, CA 92130
    *2010 North First Street, San Jose, CA 95131
    *26572 Junipero Serra Road, San Juan Capistrano, CA 92675
    2451 Bishop Drive, San Ramon, CA 94583
    *150 South La Cumbre Road, Santa Barbara, CA 93105
    24551 Lyons Avenue, Santa Clarita, CA 91321
    1819 Cloverfield Boulevard, Santa Monica, CA 90404
    *12600 Saratoga Avenue, Saratoga, CA 95070
    1200 Fair Oaks Avenue, South Pasadena, CA 91030
    *248 South Airport Boulevard, South San Francisco, CA 94080
    3102 Thousand Oaks Boulevard, Thousand Oaks, CA 91362
    2051 West 190th Street, Torrance, CA 90501
    12105 Donner Pass Road, Truckee, CA 96161
    *1515 South River Road, West Sacramento, CA 95691
    5314 Topanga Canyon Road, Woodland Hills, CA 91364
    17287 Skyline Boulevard, Woodside, CA 94062

Those marked with an asterisk are currently in-commission, full retail H2 stations as of the date of the proposal (4/6/16) plus Santa Barbara, which just commissioned.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.

ydnas7
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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:18 am

GRA wrote:Details of the next round of funding grant requirements for California H2 stations can be found here: http://www.energy.ca.gov/contracts/GFO-15-605/
....Minimum Peak Fueling Capacity for 700 Bar Refueling: Each station shall have the capability to provide a minimum of five 4kg H70-T40 fills per hour, back-to-back, without vehicle users having to wait for the station to recharge. ......


well its a significant improvement, but still, its only 20kgs of hydrogen and it time to wait, and wait and wait
so 3 x 7 kg refills and the next driver has to wait, perhaps for 100minutes

GRA
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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:36 pm

Hayward is open. #16 (4th in Bay Area).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

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GRA
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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:20 pm

Checked the price of H2 at the Hayward station last night (needed some exercise): $16.78/kg. This location doesn't get its H2 from renewables on-site and AFAIK just uses SMR with the standard 33% RFS, delivered by trailer, so its unclear to me why it's so much more expensive than Diamond Bar ($13.99/kg.) or West Sacramento ($13.59/kg.). Unlike those two, this is a True Zero (First Element) owned dispenser. Has anyone else checked prices at other True Zero locations, to see if they're comparable?

In any case, it's a good thing that the auto companies are picking up the fuel tab for three years, in hopes of reducing the price of H2 and/or seeing an increase in the price of gas in the interim so that H2 is competitive. They've still got a long ways to go to get to DoE's target price of $4/kg.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.

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TonyWilliams
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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:53 pm

Is there any defined rationale how a commodity that is been around for 150 years would magically reduce its cost by more than 2/3 ?

I get it that H2 must be radically cheaper in order for hydrogen to even have a hint of a chance, but just hoping doesn't make it true.

With the tiny number of hydrogen cars plan for in the next handful of years there will be no change in the actual cost of hydrogen. I won't be surprised if it actually goes up with companies like Toyota and Hyundai paying for the hydrogen instead of consumers!
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GRA
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Re: CA. retail H2 fuel stations

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:58 pm

TonyWilliams wrote:Is there any defined rationale how a commodity that is been around for 150 years would magically reduce its cost by more than 2/3 ?

I get it that H2 must be radically cheaper in order for hydrogen to even have a hint of a chance, but just hoping doesn't make it true.

With the tiny number of hydrogen cars plan for in the next handful of years there will be no change in the actual cost of hydrogen. I won't be surprised if it actually goes up with companies like Toyota and Hyundai paying for the hydrogen instead of consumers!

Tony, the numerous methodologies being explored/implemented by government and industry to reduce the price of H2, especially renewable H2, have been laid out at length in the H2/FCEV thread, or in links to reports detailing same.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'.

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