GetOffYourGas
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Re: Nissan to develop vehicle using ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology by 2020

Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:15 am

edatoakrun wrote:Driving prototype on display.

Notice the 24 kWh battery pack.

If I had this drivetrain in my LEAF (and E100 available at gas stations) I would have up to ~400 mile range between fuel stops, and drive all year on ~2,000 kWh, and a few dozen gallons of ethanol.

Far superior alternative to Bolt or Tesla 3 of having to cram an overpriced, overweight, and oversized pack in your BEV, if (like most drivers) you only need range > 100 miles occasionally.


Sounds like you practically just talked yourself into buy a Volt. Are we so allergic to gasoline that we are blind to the fact that others are going to continue to burn it regardless? The Volt using a few dozen gallons of gasoline per year is a drop in the bucket. And you can buy a used one today for a great price, rather than wait potentially forever until 1) Nissan builds this car and 2) E100 is readily available.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

edatoakrun
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Re: Nissan to develop vehicle using ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology by 2020

Thu Aug 04, 2016 9:39 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:Driving prototype on display.

Notice the 24 kWh battery pack.

If I had this drivetrain in my LEAF (and E100 available at gas stations) I would have up to ~400 mile range between fuel stops, and drive all year on ~2,000 kWh, and a few dozen gallons of ethanol.

Far superior alternative to Bolt or Tesla 3 of having to cram an overpriced, overweight, and oversized pack in your BEV, if (like most drivers) you only need range > 100 miles occasionally.


Sounds like you practically just talked yourself into buy a Volt. Are we so allergic to gasoline that we are blind to the fact that others are going to continue to burn it regardless? The Volt using a few dozen gallons of gasoline per year is a drop in the bucket. And you can buy a used one today for a great price, rather than wait potentially forever until 1) Nissan builds this car and 2) E100 is readily available.

The Volt (like all PHEVs) is IMO, a bastardization of two drivetrains in a particularly inefficient combination.

The Volts very short range per kWh of battery pack is a particular problem for me, as virtually all my trips are over 50 miles.

It's true GM is currently discounting Volt leases at far below their production costs, and I could get one cheaper than I could a new LEAF.

I don't need the money that badly, though...
no condition is permanent

GRA
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Re: Nissan to develop vehicle using ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology by 2020

Thu Aug 04, 2016 4:52 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:Sounds like you practically just talked yourself into buy a Volt. Are we so allergic to gasoline that we are blind to the fact that others are going to continue to burn it regardless? The Volt using a few dozen gallons of gasoline per year is a drop in the bucket. And you can buy a used one today for a great price, rather than wait potentially forever until 1) Nissan builds this car and 2) E100 is readily available.

The Volt (like all PHEVs) is IMO, a bastardization of two drivetrains in a particularly inefficient combination.

The Volts very short range per kWh of battery pack is a particular problem for me, as virtually all my trips are over 50 miles.

It's true GM is currently discounting Volt leases at far below their production costs, and I could get one cheaper than I could a new LEAF.

I don't need the money that badly, though...

If that's really a 24kWh pack it seems likely that this is a PHFCEV, as that seems excessive capacity if it's just used for accel and dumping regen as an FCHEV.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

edatoakrun
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Re: Nissan to develop vehicle using ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology by 2020

Thu Aug 04, 2016 6:20 pm

="GRA"
="edatoakrun" ...The Volt (like all PHEVs) is IMO, a bastardization of two drivetrains in a particularly inefficient combination...
If that's really a 24kWh pack it seems likely that this is a PHFCEV, as that seems excessive capacity if it's just used for accel and dumping regen as an FCHEV.

All indications are that you are mistaken, and Nissan is intent on using the SOFC in a BEVx, not planning on just another PHEV design.

The relatively small 5 kW SOFC operates as a generator range extender for the battery pack (as does the generator in all BEVXs) so that it does not exact the large penalties in cost and inefficiency that all PHEVs suffer from, due to their redundant traction power plants.

Solid-Oxide Fuel Cell vehicle Specifications
•Base Vehicle: e-NV200
•Battery Capacity: 24kWh
•Energy Source: Electricity, Ethanol
•Tank Capacity: 30L
•SOFC Output: 5kW
•Driving Range: 600km-plus

http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/ ... ll-vehicle
no condition is permanent

GRA
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Re: Nissan to develop vehicle using ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology by 2020

Fri Aug 05, 2016 4:03 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
="GRA"
="edatoakrun" ...The Volt (like all PHEVs) is IMO, a bastardization of two drivetrains in a particularly inefficient combination...
If that's really a 24kWh pack it seems likely that this is a PHFCEV, as that seems excessive capacity if it's just used for accel and dumping regen as an FCHEV.

All indications are that you are mistaken, and Nissan is intent on using the SOFC in a BEVx, not planning on just another PHEV design.

The relatively small 5 kW SOFC operates as a generator range extender for the battery pack (as does the generator in all BEVXs) so that it does not exact the large penalties in cost and inefficiency that all PHEVs suffer from, due to their redundant traction power plants.

Solid-Oxide Fuel Cell vehicle Specifications
•Base Vehicle: e-NV200
•Battery Capacity: 24kWh
•Energy Source: Electricity, Ethanol
•Tank Capacity: 30L
•SOFC Output: 5kW
•Driving Range: 600km-plus

http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/ ... ll-vehicle

Ah, it's a question of semantics. I count all PHEVs, including what you call BEVxs, as PHEVs (or PHFCEVs in this case). So it seems we're both correct. For a mostly local delivery van that probably makes sense, and Renault did it that way for their PHFCEV postal vans. For general purpose cars that will be used for road trips 5 kw seems way too small, but I'm sure this is mainly a development/proof of concept vehicle for now, and a long way from the final product(s).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

edatoakrun
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Re: Nissan to develop vehicle using ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology by 2020

Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:55 am

="GRA"
...Ah, it's a question of semantics. I count all PHEVs, including what you call BEVxs, as PHEVs (or PHFCEVs in this case)...

You should learn to count more accurately...

A PHEV uses gasoline fuel for traction power, a concept perpetrated by ICEV manufactures who want to continue to use their off-the-shelf gasoline-fueled ICE drivetrains, installed in "electrified" vehicles, to be sold in small numbers.

A BEVx is a BEV, with an efficient on-board charger using a fuel with far greater energy density than batteries, only for those exceptional long trips where huge batter packs are (presently) undesirable, due to low energy density, and the impracticality and high cost of reliable rapid public DC charging.

The particular attractiveness of ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology in a BEVx is that is allows on-board energy generation at efficiency rates as high or higher than conventional grid generation, using a stable, safe, and convenient fuel, with (nearly) complete existing infrastructure.

quote="GRA" ...For a mostly local delivery van that probably makes sense, and Renault did it that way for their PHFCEV postal vans. For general purpose cars that will be used for road trips 5 kw seems way too small...

I do the vast majority of my own rural/mountain driving trips at less than 5 kW (average) rates, so I might actually prefer a SOFC ~ that size.

It's true that for uninterrupted high speed driving, more than 5 kW might be desirable, but of course you might instead want a slightly larger than ~21 kWh battery, of 25 to 35 (available) kWh capacity.

A ~35 kWh available pack with only a 5 kW SOFC should outrange a ~54 kW (Available) Tesla 3 or Bolt between recharges at constant freeway speed, and have much longer range than either for trips of lower average speed.

Whether the output is ~5kW or ~10 kW, the opportunity to have completely reliable charging while you drive is an incredible advantage of a BEVx over any BEV that you must stop to recharge.

="GRA"...but I'm sure this is mainly a development/proof of concept vehicle for now, and a long way from the final product(s).

At ~4 minutes in, you can watch the rather bulky prototype SOFC being loaded into the van:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12ovNytBpI4
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GRA
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Re: Nissan to develop vehicle using ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology by 2020

Sat Aug 06, 2016 2:41 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
="GRA"
...Ah, it's a question of semantics. I count all PHEVs, including what you call BEVxs, as PHEVs (or PHFCEVs in this case)...

You should learn to count more accurately...

A PHEV uses gasoline fuel for traction power, an inherently silly idea perpetrated by ICEV manufactures who want to continue to use their off-the-shelf gasoline-fueled ICE drivetrains, installed in "electrified" vehicles, to be sold in small numbers.

A BEVx is a BEV, with an efficient on-board charger using a fuel with far greater energy density than batteries, only for those exceptional long trips where huge batter packs are (presently) undesirable, due to low energy density, and the impracticality and high cost of reliable rapid public DC charging.

Actually, a PHEV CAN use gasoline fuel for traction power; how much it does so is determined by the particulars of the design (serial vs. parallel vs. both, set points etc.), which is why a BEVx is just a sub-type of PHEV. However, we're obviously not going to agree on that, so we'll just have to go our separate ways, definitionally speaking.

edatoakrun wrote:The particular attractiveness of ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology in a BEVx is that is allows on-board energy generation at efficiency rates as high or higher than conventional grid generation, using a stable, safe, and convenient fuel, with (nearly) complete existing infrastructure.

Agreed on the uses (mostly) existing infrastructure bit, and 'stable' and 'convenient', although 'safe' is a bit questionable given issues of leaks to groundwater, and 'sustainable' is highly dependent on the details. Brazil's probably the best place to try it out given the relative EROEI of sugar cane to ethanol.

edatoakrun wrote:
GRA wrote: ...For a mostly local delivery van that probably makes sense, and Renault did it that way for their PHFCEV postal vans. For general purpose cars that will be used for road trips 5 kw seems way too small...

I do the vast majority of my own rural/mountain driving trips at less than 5 kW (average) rates, so I might actually prefer a SOFC ~ that size.

It's true that for uninterrupted high speed driving, more than 5 kW might be desirable, but of course you might instead want a slightly larger than ~21 kWh battery, of 25 to 35 (available) kWh capacity.

A ~35 kWh available pack with only a 5 kW SOFC should outrange a ~54 kW (Available) Tesla 3 or Bolt between recharges at constant freeway speed, and have much longer range than either for trips of lower average speed.

Whether the output is ~5kW or ~10 kW, the opportunity to have completely reliable charging while you drive is an incredible advantage of a BEVx over any BEV that you must stop to recharge.

You seem to be confusing me with someone who'd argue that a BEV is superior to a PHEV (or BEVx, as you prefer) for such trips, and as I've been advocating for PHEVs (my def.) over BEVs here for years as better all-around cars given the current capabilities of each, that's not the case. Re the size of the 'generator', for a road trip car I think it needs to be powerful enough to cruise at the maximum speed limit (85 mph in the U.S.) against some headwind and/or slight rise, say 5 mph or a 1% slope, without using the battery. Hauling a too-big battery adds to weight and cost, and reduces available volume too much, although the ideal balance between them will obviously vary from use case to use case. What's clear is that the 34 hp (25kW) Rex in the i3 lacks sufficient power to manage that, topping out a bit over 70 mph before it can't keep up. Even allowing for a more slippery shape, the extra 15-20 mph cruise needed (47% more drag @ 85) is going to require a considerably more powerful 'generator'. I'm convinced that GM made the right decision with the Volt 2 for the general public, when they opted to increase the power output of the ICE, and I'm less convinced that boosting the battery size was the right move, although that's what the early adopters wanted. Ford's selling plenty of Fusion and C-Max Energies with half the Volt's battery pack and the Sonata PHEV's slowly picking up steam as well (even though they need to offer a de-contented version, as it should be cheaper than the Volt).

="GRA"...but I'm sure this is mainly a development/proof of concept vehicle for now, and a long way from the final product(s).

At ~4 minutes in, you can watch the rather bulky prototype SOFC being loaded into the van:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12ovNytBpI4[/quote]
Yeah, seen it. I could also watch the video of the Volt concept being unveiled, but that wouldn't tell me all that much about the eventual production car. Concepts, prototypes and test mules are just that.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

edatoakrun
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Re: Nissan to develop vehicle using ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology by 2020

Sat Aug 06, 2016 6:34 pm

GRA wrote:...Re the size of the 'generator', for a road trip car I think it needs to be powerful enough to cruise at the maximum speed limit (85 mph in the U.S.) against some headwind and/or slight rise, say 5 mph or a 1% slope, without using the battery...

And that is the fundamental misconception, shared by many.

Why would anyone want to be driving a vehicle equipped with a battery and NOT use it?

The obvious utility of any on-board generator is to charge the battery pack sufficiently so that it is never fully depleted by normal driving patterns, and so always has sufficient charge to drive the vehicle for the longest non-stop trips required.

And for passenger cars, a 20 to 40 kWh battery pack, recharged by a 5 to 10 kW generator during longer trips, is sufficient for nearly all drivers' needs.
no condition is permanent

edatoakrun
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Re: Nissan to develop vehicle using ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology by 2020

Sun Aug 07, 2016 9:58 am

The website of one of Nissan's partners in the SOFC development gives more background of why it may be practical for vehicular use.

CERES POWER TO DEMONSTRATE ITS SOFC STACK TECHNOLOGY FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLE RANGE EXTENDER


28 June 2016

Ceres Power Holdings Plc
(“Ceres Power”, “Ceres” or the “Company”)

CERES POWER TO DEMONSTRATE ITS SOFC STACK TECHNOLOGY FOR ELECTRIC VEHICLE RANGE EXTENDER

Ceres Power Holdings plc (AIM:CWR) is pleased to announce it has now finalised all agreements to begin its new relationship with Nissan Motor Manufacturing (UK) Ltd and M-Solv, as part of the funding arrangement from Innovate UK and The Office for Low Emission Vehicles (“OLEV”) as previously announced on 22nd March 2016.

Ceres Power is the leader of this consortium, with Nissan and M-Solv, aimed at developing a compact, on-board solid oxide fuel cell (“SOFC”) stack for range extension of electric vehicles. The SOFC stack is based on Ceres Power’s unique SteelCell technology, which is able to work with a variety of high efficiency fuel types (including biofuels) applicable to the automotive sector. This offers a potential path to significantly accelerate the take up of electric vehicles, reducing CO2 and other emissions, and making significant progress towards the UK’s low carbon energy targets.

Phil Caldwell, Ceres Power’s Chief Executive Officer said:
“We are delighted to be working with Nissan and M-Solv to enable an all-electric vehicle with a longer range and shorter refuelling time and to help cut vehicle emissions globally. In addition, this project broadens the applications for Ceres Power's SteelCell into the automotive industry as well using alternative fuels such as biofuels.”

http://www.cerespower.com/news-media/pr ... e-extender

See the video at the link below

Notice the comments on low cost and scalability, at ~1:20.

...What makes the Steel Cell so unique is the fact that it operates at temperatures of 500-600 °C. This allows the use of low cost steel and abundant ceramics with cost-effective mass manufacturing, at the same time as delivering high performance.

We make the Steel Cell by screen printing layers of ceramic ink onto a drilled sheet of steel. Achieving these high quality ceramic layers at low temperature on steel is protected through extensive registered intellectual property and know-how. Exclusive to Ceres is the use of Ceria in the anode and electrolyte. Ceria is as abundant as copper and is used industrially for dyeing glass, self-cleaning ovens and catalytic converters in cars. Steel needs no introduction as the backbone of modern life, used in 75% of household applications.

The Steel Cell is a very efficient way of generating power from gas and can use the existing gas infrastructure. With our technology overall efficiency of fossil fuel use can be improved from around 35-40% up to 80-90%.. This means that regular users could reduce the carbon footprint of their home by 30% and even more for the modern always-on business.

The combination of these factors makes the Steel Cell an efficient, cost effective and cleaner way of giving people control over their energy supply...

http://www.cerespower.com/technology/wh ... -is-unique

The 5 kW rate of the prototype Nissan SOFC may be due to that being largest size they have already been working with for residential/ commercial use:

http://www.cerespower.com/partnering-wi ... r-partners

Consider that a SOFC that produces ~5 kW of electricity could also be expected to produce ~3 kW of recoverable thermal energy.

Meaning, a SOFC would have far increased utility in increasing the range of any BEV in colder climate conditions, by providing both battery and cabin heating.

And it would mean you might generally prefer to begin all your Winter trips using the SOFC (even the shorter ones within battery range) to get 80% to 90% total conversion efficiency from your primary hydrocarbon fuel source, rather than ~half that efficiency from grid-supplied and battery-cycled Electricity.
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GRA
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Re: Nissan to develop vehicle using ethanol-based Solid Oxide Fuel-Cell technology by 2020

Sun Aug 07, 2016 3:38 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
GRA wrote:...Re the size of the 'generator', for a road trip car I think it needs to be powerful enough to cruise at the maximum speed limit (85 mph in the U.S.) against some headwind and/or slight rise, say 5 mph or a 1% slope, without using the battery...

And that is the fundamental misconception, shared by many.

Why would anyone want to be driving a vehicle equipped with a battery and NOT use it?

To use it at a later time, of course, when ICE pollution will be at the max and efficiency the lowest (which isn't the case in freeway cruising). If I had a PHEV and was driving up to Yosemite, I'd be in EV Hold mode the whole way (except for the short distances passing through towns), and then, depending on the amount of battery range I had, I'd use the battery as much as possible inside the park to minimize local air pollution. With an FCEV (or PHFCEV) it wouldn't matter as both modes are zero emission. Ideally, I'd have an EV Auto mode that would automatically make the switch at a certain speed, which would be settable by me, say <=35 mph off the battery, 36+ with the ICE, or whatever was appropriate for the particular trip.

edatoakrun wrote:The obvious utility of any on-board generator is to charge the battery pack sufficiently so that it is never fully depleted by normal driving patterns, and so always has sufficient charge to drive the vehicle for the longest non-stop trips required.

And for passenger cars, a 20 to 40 kWh battery pack, recharged by a 5 to 10 kW generator during longer trips, is sufficient for nearly all drivers' needs.

That may well be, but it isn't the cheapest, lightest or smallest option at the moment, and as the BMW REx shows small engines tend to be quite noisy and vibrate (a fuel cell REx should avoid that). and you have to meet the expectations of the general public if you want mass adoption.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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