DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Why the Gas Station (is, and) Isn’t a Model for Electric Cars

Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:22 pm

SageBrush wrote:
Nubo wrote:As with ICE automobiles, the infrastructure will largely compose itself once a critical mass of customers exists. I speculate by the time that happens, pack sizes will negate much of the need for slow public AC charge stations. "Opportunity charging" is something early adopters put up with, I don't think it will characterize the mature EV charging infrastructure.

Home charging will take up a big part of the load; simply nature of EV driving. It's the most convenient option for millions. For renters, I see car charging becoming a common offering, just as parking spaces, cable, air-conditioning, and washer/dryer hookups became expected amenities. Still, of course there will be those who won't have that feature available and so pay stations will be important for all their driving, not just local driving.

And this all argues for the "fuel stations" of tomorrow being fast-charging stations where the process is fast and effective. An infinitude of low-power stations everywhere, while perhaps the holy grail from the standpoint of early-adopters of short-range vehicles, is a resource sink that will be grossly under-utilized and decay when far more capable EVs become a significan portion of the rolling fleet.


Exactly


no.

First off, we need to dispel the myth that larger pack sizes will be the death of smaller pack sizes. That is as far from reality as you can get. What we have now is the perception that EVs are exclusive and overpriced. That is not what manufacturers want despite their actions. Soon they will get that. Batteries will be cheaper, but they will never be cheap in a car.

The future will see EVs covering every segment of transportation need instead of the "I have the money so I will pay for more range" crowd that is, btw, a limited market. What needs to happen is EVs in every price segment which means econobox 100 mile EVs for under $20,000 along with your $50,000 Tesla.
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rmay635703
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Re: Why the Gas Station (is, and) Isn’t a Model for Electric Cars

Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:34 pm

Nubo wrote:"Opportunity charging" is something early adopters put up with, I don't think it will characterize the mature EV charging infrastructure.

Home charging will take up a big part of the load; simply nature of EV driving. It's the most convenient option for millions. For renters, I see car charging becoming a common offering, just as parking spaces, cable, air-conditioning, and washer/dryer hookups became expected amenities. Still, of course there will be those who won't have that feature available and so pay stations will be important for all their driving, not just local driving.

And this all argues for the "fuel stations" of tomorrow being fast-charging stations where the process is fast and effective. An infinitude of low-power stations everywhere, while perhaps the holy grail from the standpoint of early-adopters of short-range vehicles, is a resource sink that will be grossly under-utilized and decay when far more capable EVs become a significan portion of the rolling fleet.


I sure hope not, I love destination charging at the various offices I go to at work, if I had to QC at a station instead of spending a minute plugging in the car at my destination it would waste my time in between trips. I also love having a full charge right after work to go directly a couple hundred miles on Friday, between me and my destination is trees and rural farmland, I don't see any infrastructure investment going in here anytime soon.

Add to this In my state there has been active defunding and downright opposing charging stations in many areas.
The state and counties also penalize EVs with specialized taxes and other limitations.

So while having $50,000+ high speed charging stations speckled along various routes is great for an ev owner I would argue it is more likely to atrify here as some local QCs have already proven by being down more than half the time in states like mine where the adoption rate is a 10th or less what it is in California.
So while other states might get to a majority of EVs with commercial stations those folks will be out of luck when they try driving to a state like mine that is a decade behind everyone else and has a low adoption rate of mostly used EVs from other areas.

The reason for this atrify in a place like this is a combination of opposition, lack of maintenance dollars and the nature of an EV being capable of filling up at home. There won't be critical mass evenly throughout the country and Gas cars must go to stations, EVs don't, further adding to lack of investment in low acceptance areas.

Around here a cheap 110vac outlet is already present at many stores and businesses for block heaters, opening up cheap low maintenance resources to ev use is what's needed in a place where we can expect a lack of investment and low adoption.

Baby steps, unless charging is available in some form in many places adoption won't be high enough to justify the large QC investment.

Only way around this would be a direct federal charge system but I don't see it happening here.

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Re: Why the Gas Station (is, and) Isn’t a Model for Electric Cars

Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:07 pm

powersurge wrote:Secondly, there is a great need for free or almost free quick chargers at all interstate rest areas. without those, it is not possible to travel long distances with an ev.
Free or almost free? I disagree. s/b full cost recovery and a regulated profit.

Free should be up to the discretion of a private owner to attract other business.
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DaveinOlyWA
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Re: Why the Gas Station (is, and) Isn’t a Model for Electric Cars

Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:09 pm

smkettner wrote:
powersurge wrote:Secondly, there is a great need for free or almost free quick chargers at all interstate rest areas. without those, it is not possible to travel long distances with an ev.
Free or almost free? I disagree. s/b full cost recovery and a regulated profit.

Free should be up to the discretion of a private owner to attract other business.


+1. a free model has zero chance of thriving. Fast charge fees may not fully support the network but there has to be a revenue stream. The "we pay for it thru taxes" ideology does not work when many will be coming from out of the area.
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IssacZachary
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Re: Why the Gas Station (is, and) Isn’t a Model for Electric Cars

Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:32 pm

I think the gas station is a model for DCQC stations. If I had a +200mile range EV and wanted to go across country I wouldn't want to stop and charge at libraries and churches.

But destination charging is nice too. The fact that every McDonalds and Wal-Mart has electricity on their property seems to lend to the idea that any company could put up a charging station of some sort. Bigger stores could spend less money on many slower chargers. But fast food places might need to think about becoming the next convenience stores and adding DCQC to their list, if and when EV adoption reaches that point. Of course I probably don't need a hamburger every 200 miles though.

For us that will still have short range EV's we'll probably be happy with whatever the infrastructure can give us. I just hope that's a charging station every 30 miles. Otherwise I have to wait for used Chevy Bolts to become cheap.
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Nubo
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Re: Why the Gas Station (is, and) Isn’t a Model for Electric Cars

Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:18 pm

rmay635703 wrote:I sure hope not, I love destination charging at the various offices I go to at work, if I had to QC at a station instead of spending a minute plugging in the car at my destination it would waste my time in between trips. I also love having a full charge right after work...

I didn't address workplace charging. I'd characterize that as being fairly equivalent to the apartment situation. I.e., a common amenity. A workplace works out well for this, with fairly predictable extended stay, AC charging can add desired range. The equipment is also maintained by an agency with a financial interest in keeping the equipment safe and functional.
... There won't be critical mass evenly throughout the country and Gas cars must go to stations, EVs don't, further adding to lack of investment in low acceptance areas. ....
Baby steps, unless charging is available in some form in many places adoption won't be high enough...


The baby steps have already happened. The adoption-curve will flash-over quickly. To the tinkerers and innovators here it seems like this is taking forever. For the general public, it'll be like "what's with all the electric cars all of a sudden!".

https://cdn.theatlantic.com/static/mt/a ... entury.png

There is plenty of utility in the existing BEV arrangement, and charging options are already improving. The next step-change in charging availability and convenience will be from profit-seeking entities, not government planners or EV advocates. The pump has already been primed.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

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IssacZachary
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Re: Why the Gas Station (is, and) Isn’t a Model for Electric Cars

Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:47 pm

Nubo wrote:To the tinkerers and innovators here it seems like this is taking forever. For the general public, it'll be like "what's with all the electric cars all of a sudden!"...

charging options are already improving. The next step-change in charging availability and convenience will be from profit-seeking entities, not government planners or EV advocates. The pump has already been primed.


I sure hope you're right. I'd love to make my Leaf my only car, even if it takes longer to get places for those once in a while trips. I'd even take it on the 600 mile trip to visit my in-laws if there were level 2 charging stations between here and there. But as of now I look at PlugShare and realize I can't go anywhere without asking folks if I can borrow their outlets.

As far as charging stations go, the more the merrier.
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powersurge
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Re: Why the Gas Station (is, and) Isn’t a Model for Electric Cars

Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:30 am

I stated that we need free or almost free chargers, and I will go onto say that they need to be everywhere.

I stand by that because we all know that EV cars are not being pushed by car makers, and most people always poo poo the EV because they are worried about range anxiety. In order for the electric car change-over to occur, we need something that will make the public open their eyes, and have an AH HA moment (not the song). Also, people are sheep. If they see that something is happening around them then they will feel that others are also doing it, and will be more open to buying an EV.

For any church, store, school, park, movie, mall, gas station, to install even a couple of FREE L2 chargers, they will would spend... what $1 in electricity, and get a recurring stream of EV owners to spend and BE SEEN by the public in every visible place that all people go. That would increase sales and use of those public places to also advertise that electric cars are here to stay.

The biggest mistake is to have the model of every EV owner secretly charge at home, and continue to be an enigma to the rest of society.... It would be similar to wine making. If you want people to drink more wine, you do not secretly make wine in your basement... You sell it in stores where people will buy it.....

So they say that gas stations have a very low profit margin??? Well If they put a couple of chargers in the prime spaces (for people to buy stuff) they could make 2-4x profit on the electricity they "sold"... I would pay $1-2 to plug into a charger while I was shopping at the mall.

What I will not do is be raped by those EVGO and others that want to charge you $8-10 just to plug your car in... That model of price gouging must go!!

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Re: Why the Gas Station (is, and) Isn’t a Model for Electric Cars

Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:43 am

I'm not sure you understand how much even L-2 stations cost to install at a commercial location.
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Re: Why the Gas Station (is, and) Isn’t a Model for Electric Cars

Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:13 am

It seems to me that most municipalities would benefit by installing combined parking meters/L2 EVSEs to replace existing parking meters. Such devices could greatly increase the revenues collected at parking spaces in the town while providing a valuable service to BEV drivers. They could install a few to start and then replace more and more of their old meters as time goes on. Even L1 could be useful.

Does such a thing exist today?
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