LeftieBiker
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Re: Rebates Drive Up EV Sales By 74% In New York

Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:28 am

Having L2 there seems like a waste of money.


Anyplace where people can stop and spend an hour doing something isn't a bad place to have L-2 charging. Having such a place on a highway makes it even less a waste. The only wastes of money I see on L-2 stations are those that are put in very close to underutilized existing stations. Clifton Park is like that, with Kohl's, Chili's and Price Chopper all offering L-2 stations that are not used very often, all within a mile of each other.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Rebates Drive Up EV Sales By 74% In New York

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:32 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Having L2 there seems like a waste of money.


Anyplace where people can stop and spend an hour doing something isn't a bad place to have L-2 charging. Having such a place on a highway makes it even less a waste. The only wastes of money I see on L-2 stations are those that are put in very close to underutilized existing stations. Clifton Park is like that, with Kohl's, Chili's and Price Chopper all offering L-2 stations that are not used very often, all within a mile of each other.

I disagree, a bit. A lot of early public L2 installations around here were put in at fast food joints, McD's or Burger King, and it would be hard to imagine a worse choice given the typical dwell time at such locations - only QCs make any sense at such locations. A lot of newer urban L2s are being put in at malls and sit-down restaurants, where the dwell time is higher, and opportunity charging can make sense for people who have PHEVs or short-range BEVs, especially those who can't charge at home.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Rebates Drive Up EV Sales By 74% In New York

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:34 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:Thanks for the study link, Guy! I haven't read it yet, but I will.

I agree that L2 needs to grow faster than QC. I'm just not sure that what I'm seeing of that growth is right. L2 needs to go at residences and workplaces more than anywhere. Around here, I am seeing a bunch go in at shopping centers and restaurants. I'm not sure that makes sense in the long run. If you have a 200+ mile BEV that can charge at home and at work, L2 at the mall offers very little benefit.

And then there is this one:
https://api.plugshare.com/view/location/55397

It's called a "market", but it's a glorified rest stop along the Taconic State Parkway. Having L2 there seems like a waste of money.

And having only 5% of the QC along highway corridors? Again, that feels wrong for a world with 200+ mile EVs.

I guess I should just read that study...

Yes, they describe the rationale for the distribution.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Rebates Drive Up EV Sales By 74% In New York

Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:43 pm

Anyplace where people can stop and spend an hour doing something isn't a bad place to have L-2 charging. Having such a place on a highway makes it even less a waste. The only wastes of money I see on L-2 stations are those that are put in very close to underutilized existing stations. Clifton Park is like that, with Kohl's, Chili's and Price Chopper all offering L-2 stations that are not used very often, all within a mile of each other.



I disagree, a bit. A lot of early public L2 installations around here were put in at fast food joints, McD's or Burger King, and it would be hard to imagine a worse choice given the typical dwell time at such locations - only QCs make any sense at such locations.


I did write "and spend an hour doing something." I agree that a fast food place would be a bad idea for L-2 - especially if they put it in the drive-thru. ;-)
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GRA
Posts: 7364
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Rebates Drive Up EV Sales By 74% In New York

Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:08 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
Anyplace where people can stop and spend an hour doing something isn't a bad place to have L-2 charging. Having such a place on a highway makes it even less a waste. The only wastes of money I see on L-2 stations are those that are put in very close to underutilized existing stations. Clifton Park is like that, with Kohl's, Chili's and Price Chopper all offering L-2 stations that are not used very often, all within a mile of each other.

I disagree, a bit. A lot of early public L2 installations around here were put in at fast food joints, McD's or Burger King, and it would be hard to imagine a worse choice given the typical dwell time at such locations - only QCs make any sense at such locations.

I did write "and spend an hour doing something." I agree that a fast food place would be a bad idea for L-2 - especially if they put it in the drive-thru. ;-)

Yeah, no major disagreement. I know you wrote "an hour," which is why I wrote I disagreed "a bit" and specified fast food. With the typical 15-20 minute dwell time, most people simply won't bother, especially when (as here) the price is $0.49/kWh.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

LeftieBiker
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Re: Rebates Drive Up EV Sales By 74% In New York

Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:38 pm

If you were thinking of the Chili's I mentioned, I've never seen it used, although I rarely go that way. They put the charging station right in front, let employees park there, but will ask them to move on request. Terrible.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

GRA
Posts: 7364
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Rebates Drive Up EV Sales By 74% In New York

Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:47 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:If you were thinking of the Chili's I mentioned, I've never seen it used, although I rarely go that way. They put the charging station right in front, let employees park there, but will ask them to move on request. Terrible.

As I'm on the other side of the country, I wasn't. :lol: The $0.49/kWh L2s are Blinks, formerly owned by Ecotricity [Brain fart: should be Ecotality] and after they went bankrupt, now by Car Charging Group Inc. I think I saw one at a fast food joint being used, once. They were installed starting in 2012 or 2013, I forget which.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GetOffYourGas
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Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Rebates Drive Up EV Sales By 74% In New York

Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:24 am

GRA wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:Thanks for the study link, Guy! I haven't read it yet, but I will.

I agree that L2 needs to grow faster than QC. I'm just not sure that what I'm seeing of that growth is right. L2 needs to go at residences and workplaces more than anywhere. Around here, I am seeing a bunch go in at shopping centers and restaurants. I'm not sure that makes sense in the long run. If you have a 200+ mile BEV that can charge at home and at work, L2 at the mall offers very little benefit.

And then there is this one:
https://api.plugshare.com/view/location/55397

It's called a "market", but it's a glorified rest stop along the Taconic State Parkway. Having L2 there seems like a waste of money.

And having only 5% of the QC along highway corridors? Again, that feels wrong for a world with 200+ mile EVs.

I guess I should just read that study...

Yes, they describe the rationale for the distribution.


It seems the thrust is that non-home / non-work L2 is for PHEVs roaming around. I just don't see most PHEV drivers going out of their way to maximize their EV driving, as this study seems to assume. They bought a PHEV to be free from that worry - why not just use a tiny bit of gas?

I just finished up a 687-mile road trip in my Bolt. The only L2 charge was the full charge I started with - the rest was QC. Fortunately, I was traveling into New England which has glorious amounts of QC locations compared to most of NYS. I simply ignored the L2s around. All the QCs were "50kW" (500V / 100A). The Bolt voltage-limits at 370V, so it maxed out at 37kW. I would have loved a 150A charger so I would charge at the low end much more quickly. But even with the 50kW chargers, most of it was done while eating breakfast or lunch. On two occasions I was between meals, so I simply pulled out my Kindle and read for half an hour.

I am more convinced than ever that what we need is dependable access to L2 at home/work/destinations (e.g. hotels) and a robust QC network along travel corridors. L2 smattered around at shopping malls and the like is a great benefit to the customer / draw to the business. What is it not is particularly useful infrastructure for the growth of the market.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV (traded for Bolt)
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)
2017 Bolt Premier

GRA
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Re: Rebates Drive Up EV Sales By 74% In New York

Tue Oct 10, 2017 5:07 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:
GRA wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:Thanks for the study link, Guy! I haven't read it yet, but I will.

I agree that L2 needs to grow faster than QC. I'm just not sure that what I'm seeing of that growth is right. L2 needs to go at residences and workplaces more than anywhere. Around here, I am seeing a bunch go in at shopping centers and restaurants. I'm not sure that makes sense in the long run. If you have a 200+ mile BEV that can charge at home and at work, L2 at the mall offers very little benefit.

And then there is this one:
https://api.plugshare.com/view/location/55397

It's called a "market", but it's a glorified rest stop along the Taconic State Parkway. Having L2 there seems like a waste of money.

And having only 5% of the QC along highway corridors? Again, that feels wrong for a world with 200+ mile EVs.

I guess I should just read that study...

Yes, they describe the rationale for the distribution.


It seems the thrust is that non-home / non-work L2 is for PHEVs roaming around. I just don't see most PHEV drivers going out of their way to maximize their EV driving, as this study seems to assume. They bought a PHEV to be free from that worry - why not just use a tiny bit of gas?

On long trips, I expect that's what people will do - I'd certainly not bother to charge except at the end of day in a PHEV, unless it was right where I was spending time enroute anyway and I was going to be there long enough to make a difference. Personally, as the ICE is at its most efficient and least polluting in highway cruising and the battery at its least efficient, I"d save the battery for use in areas where there are lots of people or I just don't want to emit anything for other reasons (e.g. National Parks).

For routine local use it's more of a toss-up, depending on how convenient L2 is, its cost, how much extra they paid for the battery, etc. While the base case assumes lots of local L2 by PHEVs, they also examine sensitivity to that, and the range runs from 63k (no PHEVs using away from home L2) to over 1m (everyone using it). There are so many different variables in play that you have to pick some sort of middle ground. If I had a 20 mile 1-way commute and the choice between a 20 and 50 mile AER PHEV, AOTBE the decision would come down to whether or not I could charge at both ends, because the 20 mile PHEV will be more efficient in either CD or CS mode, as well as cheaper (for now, and assuming public electricity < gas).

GetOffYourGas wrote:I just finished up a 687-mile road trip in my Bolt. The only L2 charge was the full charge I started with - the rest was QC. Fortunately, I was traveling into New England which has glorious amounts of QC locations compared to most of NYS. I simply ignored the L2s around. All the QCs were "50kW" (500V / 100A). The Bolt voltage-limits at 370V, so it maxed out at 37kW. I would have loved a 150A charger so I would charge at the low end much more quickly. But even with the 50kW chargers, most of it was done while eating breakfast or lunch. On two occasions I was between meals, so I simply pulled out my Kindle and read for half an hour.

I am more convinced than ever that what we need is dependable access to L2 at home/work/destinations (e.g. hotels) and a robust QC network along travel corridors. L2 smattered around at shopping malls and the like is a great benefit to the customer / draw to the business. What is it not is particularly useful infrastructure for the growth of the market.

Don't forget that work and destinations (and at/near multi-family housing) is exactly what they mean by public L2 for PHEVs (and BEVs - after all, if you can reliably change at both ends, your local car can have a lot smaller and cheaper battery, so more people can afford one).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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