SageBrush
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Re: Ford plans to eliminate most passenger cars for US market, will focus on trucks, SUVs and commercial vehicles

Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:15 pm

IssacZachary wrote:Oh man! I think we just derailed this thread! But anyhow, here's another one.
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SageBrush
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Re: Ford plans to eliminate most passenger cars for US market, will focus on trucks, SUVs and commercial vehicles

Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:18 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:If anything I'd add this changing consumer preference to the list of risks for Tesla, they are mostly selling cars in a world that is looking for a different form factor.

Sort of. Sports CUV is a bit of an oxy-moron. For the rest, Enter Model Y

In any case, the Ford (and presumably all of Detroit) abandonment of cars is as much recognition that the market belongs to the Asian and Korean manufacturers as it is changing tastes. They just do not compete well in those segments. Time will tell if they can compete in the CUV space, and they better pray that fuel prices do not push Americans away from gas guzzlers.
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Re: Ford plans to eliminate most passenger cars for US market, will focus on trucks, SUVs and commercial vehicles

Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:00 pm

I concur. It isn't a matter of public taste not supporting car sales. I see lots of new cars on the road - just not Fords. They are attempting to distract from their failure to effectively compete in the car market by claiming the issue is a shift in consumer preferences to SUVs. The shift in consumer preferences has actually simply been away from Ford cars, not cars. While there has been a definite shift to SUVs, that is only part of the story. They are attempting to hide the fact they mismanaged the company and can no longer compete on cars.
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Re: Ford plans to eliminate most passenger cars for US market, will focus on trucks, SUVs and commercial vehicles

Sat Apr 28, 2018 2:02 am

DarthPuppy wrote:They are attempting to distract from their failure to effectively compete in the car market by claiming the issue is a shift in consumer preferences to SUVs. The shift in consumer preferences has actually simply been away from Ford cars, not cars. While there has been a definite shift to SUVs, that is only part of the story.

Not true for the US auto market.

Look at http://www.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_30 ... sales.html. "Light duty trucks" now made up over 1 million of the vehicles in the US. Cars were only 555K.

Unfortunately, not many people have submitted snapshots of that page but look at https://web.archive.org/web/20091112063 ... sales.html for Oct 09. Cars were 431K and "light duty trucks" were 406K.

Dec 2009 year end: https://web.archive.org/web/20100121063 ... sales.html - almost 5.5 million cars vs 4.9 million "light-duty trucks"
Dec 2017 year end: https://web.archive.org/web/20180106200 ... sales.html - 6.3 million cars vs. almost 10.9 million "light-duty trucks"

Look at the top players at http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/02/20 ... s-by-mode/ for 08.

Look at 2017: http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/01/de ... le-ranked/.

Look at March 2018: http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2018/04/ma ... le-ranked/

Notice that the Toyota Rav4 (classified as a "light truck") now outsells the Camry? Camry was Toyota's best selling vehicle. Now it's Rav4.

Notice the Nissan Rogue (classified as a "light truck") outsells the Altima? Altima was Nissan's best selling vehicle. It's now Rogue.

Notice in 08 the positions 3 thru 8 were cars but for 2017, the top 5 are now "light trucks" .

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Re: Ford plans to eliminate most passenger cars for US market, will focus on trucks, SUVs and commercial vehicles

Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:06 am

You'll notice Ford is keeping the Focus. There's still a market for cars like Corolla, Sentra, Focus etc with people looking for the cheapest thing possible to drive around, but buyers of a mind to spend a little more are opting for crossovers.
The line between cars and crossovers has blurred to the point it's little more than a styling change, not unlike 2 door vs 4 door or when Landau tops went away.
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Re: Ford plans to eliminate most passenger cars for US market, will focus on trucks, SUVs and commercial vehicles

Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:34 pm

cwerdna wrote:Not true for the US auto market.

Look at ...
Dec 2009 year end: https://web.archive.org/web/20100121063 ... sales.html - almost 5.5 million cars vs 4.9 million "light-duty trucks"
Dec 2017 year end: https://web.archive.org/web/20180106200 ... sales.html - 6.3 million cars vs. almost 10.9 million "light-duty trucks"


Quite true. Your own stats indicate a 14% increase in sales of cars in 8 years (6.3m vs 5.5m). Yes, there is a shift toward SUVs and CUVs causing those segments to expand faster. But the car market is far from as weak as they are trying to pitch it. The truth is that Ford's mismanagement has led to them being unable to compete on cars. That is the real story. You can buy their spin on it if you like. Afterall, they pay their PR people lots to try to dress it up nice so people don't notice what is really going on.

Yes, they have more success with trucks and SUVs. But if they don't recognize and fix the reasons they failed to compete with cars, how long before they blow it on these too?

This reminds me of when Lee Iacocca blamed the consumer for preferring Japanese cars over American, completely missing the concept that under his leadership his firm failed to accurately assess what the consumer wanted and provide it to them while the Japanese firms did. Rarely does management admit it botched it. Almost always they attempt to blame outside forces so that it doesn't look like it is their fault.
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Re: Ford plans to eliminate most passenger cars for US market, will focus on trucks, SUVs and commercial vehicles

Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:28 pm

Another thing being overlooked here is the fact that CUVs are essentially station wagons - NOT trucks. Light SUVs like the Rogue, and even the Rav4 and CRV are also more like station wagons than trucks, with cabin height being the main difference. The whole "Light Truck" designation was originally a way for manufacturers - especially American manufacturers - to dodge safety and fuel efficiency standards implemented for "cars." I'm sure that there are still little perks to building a vehicle as a "truck" instead of as a "car" and this has as much to do with the above stats as any actual consumer stampede toward larger SUVs. There was such a rush after 9/11, thanks in part to the manufacturers feeding the fears of the public, but now the CUV has replaced the SUV as the desired vehicle of most younger people.
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Re: Ford plans to eliminate most passenger cars for US market, will focus on trucks, SUVs and commercial vehicles

Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:11 am

DarthPuppy wrote:
cwerdna wrote:Not true for the US auto market.

Look at ...
Dec 2009 year end: https://web.archive.org/web/20100121063 ... sales.html - almost 5.5 million cars vs 4.9 million "light-duty trucks"
Dec 2017 year end: https://web.archive.org/web/20180106200 ... sales.html - 6.3 million cars vs. almost 10.9 million "light-duty trucks"


Quite true. Your own stats indicate a 14% increase in sales of cars in 8 years (6.3m vs 5.5m). Yes, there is a shift toward SUVs and CUVs causing those segments to expand faster. But the car market is far from as weak as they are trying to pitch it.

Weird interpretation.

Let's see, for 2009 vs. 2017, the entire light 4+ wheel vehicle market grew from about 10.4 million to 17.2 million, or about 65%. The car market was nowhere near that with ~14% growth while the light truck market was up 122%.

The market shifted from cars outselling trucks by about 12% to trucks outselling cars by ~73%.

Side note: Many of Subaru's vehicles (except the BR-Z) are classified as "light trucks", which let them get away with lower fuel economy as the CAFE standard required mpg on "light truck" fleets is lower than it is for the two car fleets: DP and IP (domestic and imported passenger cars).

Chrysler's PT Cruiser was one of the more well-known examples of a car that got classified as a "light truck" which helped boost Chrysler's "light truck" CAFE numbers. See specs tab of https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do ... 6&id=20165.

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Re: Ford plans to eliminate most passenger cars for US market, will focus on trucks, SUVs and commercial vehicles

Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:23 am

Another "light truck" that caused some consternation was GM's first slope-nosed minivan. The name escapes me, but it was pretty terrible, and even lacked, IIRC, side impact beams because even though it was marketed as a minivan, it was legally a "truck." The light truck category has always been the loophole through which the manufacturers could happily drive a... well, you get the idea.

EDIT: they were the "Lumina APV" and "Pontiac Trans-Sport."
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Re: Ford plans to eliminate most passenger cars for US market, will focus on trucks, SUVs and commercial vehicles

Sun Apr 29, 2018 3:42 am

LeftieBiker wrote:Another thing being overlooked here is the fact that CUVs are essentially station wagons - NOT trucks. Light SUVs like the Rogue, and even the Rav4 and CRV are also more like station wagons than trucks, with cabin height being the main difference...

The Honda HRV is supposedly based on the Fit platform (I've never understood what that meant). Does it matter that a bunch of people are opting for the HRV over an Accord?
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