GRA
Posts: 9742
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

GCC: Volkswagen customers in Germany ordering more diesel vehicles; share of 43% in 2018, vs. 39% in 2017

Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:10 pm

https://www.greencarcongress.com/2019/01/20190130-vwdiesel.html

Posted without comment:
. . . Demand for diesel cars was particularly strong among private customers, where the share almost doubled from 15% in 2017 to 27% last year.

    In Germany, the diesel debate is emotionally charged—and frequently strays from the facts. Given its high efficiency and its performance and in light of climate change, the diesel engine will remain an important technology for years to come, especially for those who travel long distances.

    —Volkswagen Brand Board Member for Sales, Jürgen Stackmann. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Oilpan4
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: GCC: Volkswagen customers in Germany ordering more diesel vehicles; share of 43% in 2018, vs. 39% in 2017

Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:30 pm

It sounds like the anti diesel movement is largely emotionally driven and has no basis in reality.

Diesel engines emit up to 15% less CO2 than comparable gasoline engines; the CO2benefits are greater for larger vehicles. The very latest generation of diesel engines from the Volkswagen Group (EA288 evo, earlier post) achieves even lower emission levels and reduces CO2 emissions by up to 10 g/km (NEDC) in a direct comparison to the previous generation.


(At least with the new dieses out now, I agree the old ones can be pretty dirty)
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

WetEV
Posts: 2512
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: GCC: Volkswagen customers in Germany ordering more diesel vehicles; share of 43% in 2018, vs. 39% in 2017

Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:10 pm

Oilpan4 wrote:It sounds like the anti diesel movement is largely emotionally driven and has no basis in reality.


Who cares how bad the air gets anyway? That is an emotional issue. Like LA air gets people emotional, or at least crying.

Yes, diesel engines are more fuel efficient, so emit less CO2 than gasoline engines. But diesels produce more PM2.5.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 084541.htm
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

Oilpan4
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: GCC: Volkswagen customers in Germany ordering more diesel vehicles; share of 43% in 2018, vs. 39% in 2017

Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:29 pm

So what's it going to be?
Better fuel economy less CO2 but more PM or lower fuel economy, more CO2 and a little less PM?

Doesn't seem like diesel cars would cause any problems if they were used in the countryside.

Your preaching to the choir. I am well aware of PM studies on cardio health.

But how much worse are the PM emissions from the new generation diesels?
I saw a UK study that showed a large portion of the 2.5 PM actually comes from brakes and tires. The diesel exhaust limits weren't helping nearly as much as they though it would.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 10572
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: GCC: Volkswagen customers in Germany ordering more diesel vehicles; share of 43% in 2018, vs. 39% in 2017

Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:44 pm

Somebody doesn't know about Dieselgate, apparently.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 3242
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: GCC: Volkswagen customers in Germany ordering more diesel vehicles; share of 43% in 2018, vs. 39% in 2017

Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:08 am

Oilpan4 wrote:I am well aware of PM studies on cardio health.

Let me add to your awareness: the heart and lungs are different organs. Lungs are the organs we use to breathe and are the organs damaged by inhaled soot. Is this over your head ? I"ll try to dumb it down further if needed.

Diesel engines emit up to 15% less CO2 than comparable gasoline engines

VW Golf:
https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/new/golf-s ... #tech-spec
The petrol version emits 3.7% more CO2 per distance

================
NOx:
Image
Vehicle A = 2012 Jetta SportWagen TDI DSG (LNT), Vehicle B = 2013 Passat TDI DSG (SCR), Vehicle C = 2013 BMW X5 xDrive35d (SCR)
Here is a summary article of the test that brought this issue to light: http://www.citylab.com/crime/2015/09...kswagen/407149

See that broken green line at the bottom of the chart ? That is *maximum* allowable NOx emissions in the US, 70 mg/mile. The cleaner petrol cars on the road in the US emit ~ 4.3% of that maximum allowable amount

Quick math:
VW Diesels emit up to 1800 mg/mile
Clean petrol cars 3 mg/mile
-> diesels emit up to 60,000% more NOx emissions than clean petrol cars

Oilpan4, are you shooting for the most ignorant person to ever post here ?
Last edited by SageBrush on Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:51 am, edited 6 times in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Oilpan4
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: GCC: Volkswagen customers in Germany ordering more diesel vehicles; share of 43% in 2018, vs. 39% in 2017

Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:37 am

LeftieBiker wrote:Somebody doesn't know about Dieselgate, apparently.


Diesel gate was due to NOx and programming the ecu with an emissions testing "defeat device".

VW tried one of the oldest tricks in the book used on electronically controlled vehicles to pass emissions and got caught.
No auto maker appears to have ever gotten away with doing this.
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

Oilpan4
Posts: 206
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2019 10:51 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2018
Leaf Number: 004270

Re: GCC: Volkswagen customers in Germany ordering more diesel vehicles; share of 43% in 2018, vs. 39% in 2017

Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:45 am

SageBrush wrote:
Oilpan4 wrote:Your preaching to the choir. I am well aware of PM studies on cardio health.

Let me add to your awareness: the heart and lungs are different organs.


Thank you captain obvious.
I'm well aware of what they are I have removed plenty of them from my all natural fast foods (deer, rabits, elk, ect).
2011 white SL leaf with 2014 batt.
Chargers: Panasonic brick moded for 240v, duosida 16a 240v and a 10kw setec portable CHAdeMO
Location: 88103

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 10572
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: GCC: Volkswagen customers in Germany ordering more diesel vehicles; share of 43% in 2018, vs. 39% in 2017

Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:48 pm

VW tried one of the oldest tricks in the book used on electronically controlled vehicles to pass emissions and got caught.
No auto maker appears to have ever gotten away with doing this.


VW filled Europe with dirty diesels for many years. That's close enough to "getting away with it" from the perspective of environmental degradation. (Europe failed to meet its air quality targets because of the actions of VW/Audi, Mercedes, and the French diesel car makers.) These other diesel manufacturers are STILL getting away with it, by using an exemption in European emissions rules for "engine protection."

I don't know if you're deliberately trolling with all of your extraneous references to Iraq, killing small animals, and deceptive websites, but what you are mainly accomplishing is getting yourself filtered and your opinions discounted. If that's what you want, fine...
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 3242
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: GCC: Volkswagen customers in Germany ordering more diesel vehicles; share of 43% in 2018, vs. 39% in 2017

Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:08 pm

Here is the overall trend in the important Diesel countries in Europe

Image

The trend away from Diesel is if anything, accelerating:

https://www.best-selling-cars.com/europ ... a-country/
Overall a 16-17% drop YOY from H2 2017 to H2 2018. Marketshare in Germany dropped 20% and 30% in the UK


And even though the EU still has very lenient NOx pollution standards for diesels at 271 mg/mile by the RDE compared to 70 mg/mile in the US, the diesel manufacturers as a group are still far away from compliance. This graphic is taken from a 2017/18 ICCT article
https://www.theicct.org/sites/default/f ... 17_Web.pdf

Image
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Return to “Business / Economy and Politics”