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walterbays
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Re: Taxing EVs for use of the roads

Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:18 am

sjfotos wrote:This has nothing to do with road use and everything to do with reactionary oil state politics. ...If this genius wanted to be fair, she would abolish the gas tax and simply have everyone on a miles traveled tax basis.
Better yet miles traveled times vehicle weight. And abolish the utility taxes on electricity used as e-fuel.

Can you imagine the outrage if a blue stater proposed a GPS system in cars? The mind reels....
Texans have an independent onery streak. If her proposal went through I imagine we'd see a bunch of Big Brother GPS units wrapped in tinfoil. But a good number of Texans also have common sense, and can figure out that cars already carry a device that measures miles traveled better and more easily than a GPS unit, and her bill will not pass.

PS to Smidge204: In the Northeast, when Nissan finally begins selling cars there, many people will drive a significant number of miles in non-home states. Some will drive the majority of their miles in an adjacent state since many people live just across the border from their work.
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Re: Taxing EVs for use of the roads

Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:45 am

Smidge204 wrote:I generally support the notion that vehicles should be taxed per mile..............................rational I use here is that one is to cover cost of road maintenance, the other is a tax on energy use. EVs would get taxed on mileage and via the electric bill so this is functionally equivalent.

The only issue I can think of with simple mileage reporting is how to handle out-of-state travel in a reasonable manner. If you travel to another state and buy gas there, the gasoline tax you pay supports (in theory) the roads you are using in that state. On the whole the chance that someone would do a significant amount of driving in a state other than the one they also buy gas in is pretty slim.


=Smidge=

--------------------------------------------------------------
Again, the governmental (both local and Fed) mismanagement of road tax funds is reflective in the dilapidated roads and rusty unsafe bridges throughout the states. A yearly mileage tax is fine, but how will that mileage be reported and not stir-up another governmental department to handle it at further expense? I'm not sure how electricity for an EV could be taxed and translated to road tax (unless road tax via electricity use at the EVSE directly?) I'm not in favor of a GPS government monitored device in my car, but maybe at the EVSE would work. However, people may just bypass this example with the use of solar panels and direct charging of the cars.

As for out of state road taxes when EV traveling--I think we are a few years away from this becoming an impact, since EV range is limited at this point.

Gasoline issues are a mute point to this EV thread, IMHO.
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Re: Taxing EVs for use of the roads

Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:54 am

If Pollution-Reduction is a Goal:
Non-polluting vehicles should get a per-mile tax credit, paid for with new pollution-producer taxes.

If Oil-Independence is a Goal:
Non-gas users should get an oil-independence (per mile) tax credit paid for with gas taxes.
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EricH
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Re: Taxing EVs for use of the roads

Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:26 am

I tend to agree with those calling the Texas legislators "reactionary", because our system of vehicle taxes today in California is based partly on a fixed annual registration fee (that varies in part with the car's price/value and depreciates over time) and partly on fuel taxes (that vary directly with the fuel efficiency of the car). So today, people driving identical mileage can pay wildly different 'fees' to the state government, depending on the price of their car and the amount of fuel they purchase -- neither of which is particularly well correlated with the wear/tear on the state's highway system.

By taxing by car-price and fuel consumption, the government today is incentivizing the use of lower priced cars that get better mileage (Prius, Fit, Yaris, Smart). This is a perfectly valid social policy, if we also believe fossil fuel consumption has bad consequences (air pollution, dependence on unfriendly regimes, etc.). So leaving EV's the heck alone would be a logical extension of that social and tax policy, if we want more LEAF's and fewer Humvees. I won't pay fuel taxes to drive my LEAF, but I will pay an annual excise tax on a new $34,000 car (based on the pre-rebate, pre-tax credit price, mind you) and, as DarkStar already pointed out, city franchise fees and city taxes on my (higher) electricity bill.

I'm hopeful that the knee-jerk reactions of cash-starved legislators, who are fear-stricken at the idea of a handful of environmentally conscious constituents not paying "their fair share" to support highways, will prove to be just that -- knee-jerk reactions that don't get any traction. Worst case, all vehicles will wind up paying some 'per mile' charge, but I don't see anyone repealing fuel taxes, so EV's would keep that advantage.
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Re: Taxing EVs for use of the roads

Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:31 am

gasmiser1 wrote:A yearly mileage tax is fine, but how will that mileage be reported and not stir-up another governmental department to handle it at further expense?

I don't know where you live, but around here (New York) it's already required to report your vehicle's mileage to the state for several reasons. Add it to the registration fee for your vehicle, or charge it at the garage when you get your annual inspection. Or have your insurance company collect it (since insurance is mandatory in NY everyone has an insurance provider).

And the problem with mismanagement is fairly simple to fix in concept: Call your state-level representatives and tell them to alter the funding laws so that money collected for road maintenance can only be used for road maintenance. Or are you one of those people who think "earmark" is a dirty word?

gasmiser1 wrote:I'm not sure how electricity for an EV could be taxed and translated to road tax (unless road tax via electricity use at the EVSE directly?)

I never said a tax on electricity would be used for roads.

gasmiser1 wrote:As for out of state road taxes when EV traveling--I think we are a few years away from this becoming an impact, since EV range is limited at this point.

See walterbays' comment to me. Being from New York I'm well aware that many people live in New Jersey or Connecticut and work in New York - or vice-versa. It's a common scenario here and it's the basis for my thought on the matter.


garygid - While I agree on both points, what if maintaining funds for road maintenance is the goal? Or what if all three are goals? Pretty sure we could set rates to advance all those objectives since they are not mutually exclusive.
=Smidge=

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Re: Taxing EVs for use of the roads

Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:52 am

I agree, set the Goals, and tax accordingly ... if you can "get away" with it.

High tax on new, efficient vehicles:
This tells people to keep their okd, polluting clunkers.

No tax on road-use:
This says that designs that beat the roads to death are OK.

Tax on e-Fuel, if any:
Should be used to expand the e-fueling QC infrastructure,
so that EVs can become main-stream vehicles sooner.

No Gas-Guzzler tax:
Tells car manufacturers that it is OK to continue building "guzzlers".

Non-Clean Electricity Tax:
... you get the idea ...
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Re: Taxing EVs for use of the roads

Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:34 am

Asphalt / concrete highways cost billions, not including their maintenance. Stupid as THIS may sound . . . . a massive high speed rail and subway system would be a lot more economical to maintain (less tax?). . . but then . . . we'd have to build it. Yea, that'll happen. Not as long as the tire manufacturers / auto manufacturing / repair / lobby has their way.

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Re: Taxing EVs for use of the roads

Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:39 am

hill wrote:Asphalt / concrete highways cost billions, not including their maintenance. Stupid as THIS may sound . . . . a massive high speed rail and subway system would be a lot more economical to maintain (less tax?). . . but then . . . we'd have to build it. Yea, that'll happen. Not as long as the tire manufacturers / auto manufacturing / repair / lobby has their way.

As long as when they build it, they include auto transport (with charging en-route!). It would be tre-cool to be able to take the train to Santa Barbara or Vegas, and drive my Leaf while I was there.
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Re: Taxing EVs for use of the roads

Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:41 am

@walterbays,
I would be in support of a mileage tax, with a vehicle weight surcharge. That makes perfect sense from a road usage perspective.

Therefore, it will never happen! :)
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Re: Taxing EVs for use of the roads

Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:19 pm

What I don't get is why all the mixed messages? Does the government want to encourage EVs or not? They're offering heavy subsidies because of the clean air benefits, reduced foreign oil dependence, etc., while at the same time wanting to slap them with extra taxes because they don't pay gasoline tax to help fund the roads. Why not just consider that another perk in promoting them? Or make that THE perk and do away with the credits and rebates...

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