occ
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Re: Does Nissan support LGBT LEAF owners?

Tue May 24, 2011 9:36 pm

Came to the party a bit late, but I signed anyways. I'm glad to see Nissan and sone of those companies made their statements, and publicly opposed the bigoted legislation. Good to see that some of these companies saw how even big business powers can be hijacked and used for discrimination, under the guide of business ideals. Gotta handed to the religious right on this one.They pulled a fast one on the business community this time. Is it to much to hope the big businesses hit back a bit?
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SkiTundra
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Re: Does Nissan support LGBT LEAF owners?

Thu May 26, 2011 11:47 am

A bit of behind the scenes scoop on this bill. Without this bill being passed one large employer would have left TN and another said they would have to consider it. This also raised concerns about any new companies choosing to move to TN. The issue is the extent to which local legislation would require companies to offer highly customized health and benefit plans for employees in different geographic or business areas. The company who said that would have to consider leaving already offers one of the best 'partner benefit' plans in the nation but that plan would not have met a local ordinance being considered where their plant is located. The cost of idling the plant and laying off workers was less than the cost of providing a customized health and benefit plan. And, less than 1% of this companies employees in TN take advantage of the current partner benefit plan and none would have benefited from the customized plan. This company is a major supplier to Nissan.

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Re: Does Nissan support LGBT LEAF owners?

Thu May 26, 2011 11:52 am

SkiTundra wrote:A bit of behind the scenes scoop on this bill. Without this bill being passed one large employer would have left TN and another said they would have to consider it. This also raised concerns about any new companies choosing to move to TN. The issue is the extent to which local legislation would require companies to offer highly customized health and benefit plans for employees in different geographic or business areas. The company who said that would have to consider leaving already offers one of the best 'partner benefit' plans in the nation but that plan would not have met a local ordinance being considered where their plant is located. The cost of idling the plant and laying off workers was less than the cost of providing a customized health and benefit plan. And, less than 1% of this companies employees in TN take advantage of the current partner benefit plan and none would have benefited from the customized plan. This company is a major supplier to Nissan.



Citations please.
Links.
Proof?
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davewill
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Re: Does Nissan support LGBT LEAF owners?

Thu May 26, 2011 12:05 pm

SkiTundra wrote:A bit of behind the scenes scoop on this bill. Without this bill being passed one large employer would have left TN and another said they would have to consider it. This also raised concerns about any new companies choosing to move to TN. The issue is the extent to which local legislation would require companies to offer highly customized health and benefit plans for employees in different geographic or business areas. The company who said that would have to consider leaving already offers one of the best 'partner benefit' plans in the nation but that plan would not have met a local ordinance being considered where their plant is located. The cost of idling the plant and laying off workers was less than the cost of providing a customized health and benefit plan. And, less than 1% of this companies employees in TN take advantage of the current partner benefit plan and none would have benefited from the customized plan. This company is a major supplier to Nissan.

Idle threats...and not even credible ones. How can it cost them more than idling the plant to provide the benefit if "...less than 1% of this companies employees in TN take advantage of the current partner benefit plan and none would have benefited from the customized plan." Do people even think anymore?
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SkiTundra
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Re: Does Nissan support LGBT LEAF owners?

Thu May 26, 2011 1:04 pm

I'm a journalist, not an HR person so maybe someone who knows the HR world can chime in with more. The issues for the companies as I understand them:

- Any benefit or policy plan that veers from company standards requires custom programming for systems to be able to handle them as well as employee time (HR & Legal) to design the plans and oversee them.

- If they offer a benefit to anyone's 'partner' they may be legally required to offer that same benefit or all benefits to any 'partner' anywhere. This creates a problem with what defines a 'partner'. Some companies that provide very comprehensive and expensive health plans have apparently also had problems with people naming a friend who does not have such a good plan as a 'partner' in order to provide their friend with benefits.

- Companies have experienced problems of 'partners' double-dipping by making claims with their own insurance and with their partners. Not sure why this is different from married people doing the same.

- On average, costs (I believe just medical) for partners have been over five times as high as costs for 'spouses'. For whatever reason partners require more medical aid than married spouses, how much of this is intentional gaming of the system and how much is something else I have no idea.

- Companies have experienced significant problems when conflicts arise over death benefits and 'partners' who may or may not be legally entitled to them. Apparently some similar problems when partners separate and one files suit against the other.

- US and State codes do not yet have adequate protections in them to protect companies, investment companies, insurance companies and partners for issues around non-marital benefits. EG, there are codes that say how stuff is done within a marriage and on the dissolution of a marriage, not so for partners.

- When asked if they believed their company should provide partner benefits, over 60% of employees at one company agreed. When asked if they would still support that if the costs of their benefits increased by $37/mo (the cost of full partner benefits spread across all employees), support dropped to 6%.

It would seem the solution is to either expand the definition of marriage to include gays or get some kind of legal union laws implemented.

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Re: Does Nissan support LGBT LEAF owners?

Thu May 26, 2011 1:17 pm

citations please.
links.

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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Does Nissan support LGBT LEAF owners?

Thu May 26, 2011 2:23 pm

I have no doubt SkiTundra speaks the truth. People see big companies as a bottomless well of gimmie-gimmie-gimmie, without any regard to the notion that they have to produce a product that has value in the market and make a profit to succeed. Compliance costs are through the roof.

Remember General Motors went bankrupt because they became a health care charity that was building cars on the side.
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Jimmydreams
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Re: Does Nissan support LGBT LEAF owners?

Thu May 26, 2011 2:46 pm

SkiTundra wrote:I'm a journalist, not an HR person so maybe someone who knows the HR world can chime in with more. The issues for the companies as I understand them:

- Any benefit or policy plan that veers from company standards requires custom programming for systems to be able to handle them as well as employee time (HR & Legal) to design the plans and oversee them.


Mostly BS and opinion. Any plan that covers a 'spouse' can be modified to cover a 'partner' by a simple HR memo. Do married people have to produce a marriage license before being covered under company X's benefit or policy? Neither should someone with a partner.

SkiTundra wrote:- If they offer a benefit to anyone's 'partner' they may be legally required to offer that same benefit or all benefits to any 'partner' anywhere. This creates a problem with what defines a 'partner'. Some companies that provide very comprehensive and expensive health plans have apparently also had problems with people naming a friend who does not have such a good plan as a 'partner' in order to provide their friend with benefits.


That's called fraud and there are already laws against it. Are you telling me because some people are killed with a car, that all cars are a 'problem'?

SkiTundra wrote:- Companies have experienced problems of 'partners' double-dipping by making claims with their own insurance and with their partners. Not sure why this is different from married people doing the same.


It's not, and it's already covered under fraud statutes. But nice try trying to smear gays with something that 'seems' specific to one group that really isn't.

SkiTundra wrote:- On average, costs (I believe just medical) for partners have been over five times as high as costs for 'spouses'. For whatever reason partners require more medical aid than married spouses, how much of this is intentional gaming of the system and how much is something else I have no idea.


Until you show me a study on this, I'm going to SCREAM bullshit on this one. As a 'journalist', do you just regurgitate what you hear, or do you actually do any research? This doesn't pass the smell test, and you oughta know better.

SkiTundra wrote:- Companies have experienced significant problems when conflicts arise over death benefits and 'partners' who may or may not be legally entitled to them. Apparently some similar problems when partners separate and one files suit against the other.


How about another link? This one smells like the "5 time medial cost" BS above. If 'partners' are covered exactly like married people, where is the problem???

SkiTundra wrote:- US and State codes do not yet have adequate protections in them to protect companies, investment companies, insurance companies and partners for issues around non-marital benefits. EG, there are codes that say how stuff is done within a marriage and on the dissolution of a marriage, not so for partners.


Hiding behind US and state codes isn't reason enough for a company to discriminate. But it was a nice try.

SkiTundra wrote:- When asked if they believed their company should provide partner benefits, over 60% of employees at one company agreed. When asked if they would still support that if the costs of their benefits increased by $37/mo (the cost of full partner benefits spread across all employees), support dropped to 6%.


Since when do companies provide benefits based on employee surveys and the associated costs? Of COURSE support would drop if people were told it would cost them more. But what would happen to support for "married benefits" if those costs were dropped and people saw actual raises based on that?? EVERY divorced or single person would say "HELL YES!". Should that be a reason to deny benefits to married people?? No, it's not a valid argument. If a company provides benefits for married people, they should provide benefits for domestic partners. Period.

SkiTundra wrote:It would seem the solution is to either expand the definition of marriage to include gays or get some kind of legal union laws implemented.


That is about the only part of your entire post that is factual and true.

Just like truly knowledgeable EVers bristle when they see FUD being spread about EV's, I do the same when it comes to domestic partner laws/policies/commentary. FUD is FUD, and in the case of myself and my partner, real legal and financial harm is foisted upon us that isn't levied against the married couple next door. It's not right, it's not fair, and when I see people spread complete FUD, I call them on it.
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thankyouOB
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Re: Does Nissan support LGBT LEAF owners?

Thu May 26, 2011 3:32 pm

LTLFTcomposite wrote:I have no doubt SkiTundra speaks the truth. People see big companies as a bottomless well of gimmie-gimmie-gimmie, without any regard to the notion that they have to produce a product that has value in the market and make a profit to succeed. Compliance costs are through the roof.

Remember General Motors went bankrupt because they became a health care charity that was building cars on the side.


I call BS on this last sentence. And the first graf is nasty, refutable, right-wing propaganda, as well.

Providing your workers with health care as a negotiated benefit to ensure their well-being, provide a stable work force and share some of the company success is NOT CHARITY. These were negotiated benefits with one of the largest corporations in the world and when they became less profitable the work force renegotiated down its wages and benefits.

Please be so kind as to take these gooper TPs to some other place.

thankyouOB
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Re: Does Nissan support LGBT LEAF owners?

Thu May 26, 2011 3:57 pm

nice slice and dice, jimmydreams. Well done.
this guy apparently cant support a word of that with links or citations. just I heard and I believe and it may be all the way out the door and down the hall.

journalists use facts; more like a blogger or paid pr commenter.

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