VW : Electric cars are not suitable for the mass market

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1061695_vw-commits-to-launching-hybrid-option-on-every-model-report

The German auto giant sees hybrids, more specifically, range-extended plug-in hybrids, as the most viable option going into the future, with even its small cars expected to benefit from the addition of an electric motor and battery.

The information was revealed during an interview with Auto Motor und Sport, where Winterkorn explained that new electric cars like the Nissan Leaf are not suitable for the mass market. He blames battery technology as still being in its infancy, explaining that a 550 pound battery pack that only offers 25 kWh of juice under ideal conditions and is good for just 100 miles of driving is insufficient.

Instead, he sees Volkswagen’s lineup in the next 10 years moving towards the adoption of range-extended plug-in hybrid tech, allowing drivers to use zero-emissions electric power for short trips and an internal combustion range-extender for longer journeys.

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So looks like we have some camps forming

BEV :
- Nissan/Renault
- BMW
- Mitsubishi

PHEV :
- GM
- VW

Hedging :
- Toyota
- Ford
- Hyundai/Kia ?

Sleeping :
- Honda
- Fiat/Chrysler
- Daimler
- Suzuki
- Mazda
- PSA ?

PS : Including only top 15 auto majors

You forgot Volvo in the BEV cat.

Does the Smart BEV count as a hedge?

cdub said:

You forgot Volvo in the BEV cat.

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At over $2k per month for lease they are in "out of their minds" category

Woah - I didn't know it'd be that much.

IBELEAF said:

cdub said:

You forgot Volvo in the BEV cat.

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At over $2k per month for lease they are in "out of their minds" category

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Volvo is also releasing a PHEV. Probably also at an OOTM price.

.

Interesting! Having been a VW owner for more than 20 years, until recently, I have to say I think it is VW that is growing out of touch with people like me. To say that the battery technology is in it's infancy is a gross misrepresentation from what I'm experiencing even without the L3's available yet. I had no idea anyone could come up with a 24 KW battery that could take lots of opportunity charging on route, and even more amazingly accept an 80% charge in 30 minutes. When chargers are all over the place, it may turn out that 100 mile range is more than I will ever need for in city driving... it practically already is, and may even be workable for multiple QC long trips on occasion. Their TDI jetta could barely compete in gas mileage with my hybrid hylander, because they sacraficed mileage for pick up, and my Leaf is so much better for around town stop and go that I don't own a VW anymore. As soon as people get how far along this technology is and how reliable it is, hybrids are going to have a hard time competing because having an ICE car for occasional trips will work, and having that be hybrid will be costly for how little it will get used, IMHO. If EV was so unpractical, I wouldn't be doing 90% of my driving in the Leaf, and that's with the first generation of mas produced vehicles, nice try VW! Bye Bye! ;~)

The future is bright for EV's, it is now, and it's making the folks at VW nervous because they haven't made the needed long term investments to make the transition, IMHO!

onwards and upwards,
g

Add a 6.6 charger to the Leaf for those opportunity charges. I'm hoping there's an upgrade... but I'm not holding my breath.

Also in the BEV-out-of-their-minds (except their clientele are used to it) category would be Rolls Royce:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/motoring/article-1361558/Geneva-Motor-Show-Electric-Rolls-Royce-limo-costs-just-2p-mile-run-1m-buy.html

GaslessInSeattle said:

...When chargers are all over the place, it may turn out that 100 mile range is more than I will ever need for in city driving...

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If I could do L2 charging at most of my parking stops, the current range would be 100% adequate for all my needs except out of town trips. Upgrading to 6.6kw charging is only on the wish list because L2 isn't everywhere.

I just attended a conference where a VP from VW talked about their research/analysis into electric cars. They are looking at lots of things but seem to be most interested in carbon emissions limits in the EU. In their analysis, high performance diesel emits less carbon than "most" BEV's charged by "typical/average" electrical grids. Before I get flamed, notice the quote marks. Yes, I know solar, wind, hydro, and nuclear don't emit much CO2. Germany is moving forward on reducing CO2 emissions by many techniques. Interestingly, China is expected to add lots of BEVs in the near future. Yes, they are adding lots of wind and nuclear, but are still primarily coal. VW estimates that CO2 emissions from China will increase much more with BEVs than if they used diesel. Another interesting tidbit from the conference was that the Mid-Continent Area Power Pool (MAPP) is 99% coal (http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/electricity.htm) and it's located in the "US Saudia Arabia of Wind".

evnow said:

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1061695_vw-commits-to-launching-hybrid-option-on-every-model-report
So looks like we have some camps forming

BEV :
- Nissan/Renault
- BMW
- Mitsubishi

PHEV :
- GM
- VW

Hedging :
- Toyota
- Ford
- Hyundai/Kia ?

Sleeping :
- Honda
- Fiat/Chrysler
- Daimler

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Fiat/Chrysler have stated an intention of entering the EV field.
http://www.allcarselectric.com/news/1045101_snapped-on-the-street-fiat-500-electric-car-visits-palo-alto
"A couple of months ago, Chrysler announced it would build an electric version of the 500 for the U.S. market. The powertrain will be developed by engineers at its Michigan headquarters"

gbshaun said:

Fiat/Chrysler have stated an intention of entering the EV field.
http://www.allcarselectric.com/news/1045101_snapped-on-the-street-fiat-500-electric-car-visits-palo-alto
"A couple of months ago, Chrysler announced it would build an electric version of the 500 for the U.S. market. The powertrain will be developed by engineers at its Michigan headquarters"

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Well, I won't be holding my breath for that one.

All the other auto majors I've noted either have cars on the road or will have some by the end of 2012.

The German auto giant sees hybrids, more specifically, range-extended plug-in hybrids, as the most viable option going into the future, with even its small cars expected to benefit from the addition of an electric motor and battery.

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That used to be the same line coming out of Porsche AG (which is now owned by VW) but they have started dabbling now with two Boxster BEV prototypes to augment their hybrid lineup. Of course they will probably be horribly expensive, so hardly for the "mass market," and VW could still kill the idea before it came to production, but Porsche used to say the same thing about waiting for battery technology to "mature" before getting into all-electric cars....
http://www.greencar.com/articles/electric-boxster-e-porsche-more-hybrids-mind.php

TT

ttweed said:

.. but Porsche used to say the same thing about waiting for battery technology to "mature" before getting into all-electric cars....

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Infact this has been the standard excuse for everyone from Toyota & Honda to Diemler. Tesla and the 2008 oil shock were the 1,2 punch that changed their tunes.

The amazing part is that Tesla did it with laptop batteries!.. the wonders of a good BMS system.

We owe a lot of thanks to Tesla.

evnow said:

Well, I won't be holding my breath for that one.

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You'd better be holding your breath when a diesel comes by! Volkswagen loves diesels.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/2625-CO2-Emissions-EV-vs-Diesel
http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2011/0...eport-sparks-fight-over-diesel-emi-31177.html

Seriously, I sure hope the new diesel engines are a lot cleaner than what's on the road today. Cleaning them up might make a bigger improvement to the nation's air than putting a million EV's on the road.

Yeah, I agree with VW's logic.

I mean, if you didn't have at least 1000 different parts to fail and gush oil all over the place like other VW products, what would replace all of the OEM parts revenue they'd lose? Seems like a good way for any car manufacturer to drive themselves out of business.

I got to thinking about the negative EV press that has come out now that the EV is a threat to the status quo. Just think, not only could the oil companies be worried but so could the piston manufacturers, the piston ring manufacturers, the oil, gas and air filter makers, the muffler and tail pipe mfrs., etc., etc., etc. Just "follow the money" and it is easy to see why some will only point to the negative rather than the positive all the while ignoring the negatives of the existing ICE world.