Road Use by E.V. Drivers: To Tax or Not to Tax?

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EdmondLeaf

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2011
Messages
1,500
Location
Edmond, OK
By contributing to keeping oil prices low do EV's help keep the price of asphalt down?

Do EVs help by not dripping oil that deteriorates the pavement surface?

Is it true that one truck puts more wear on pavement than 10,000 cars?
 
EdmondLeaf said:
Wonder what is your opinion. There is tax on my electricity, but is not for road construction/maintenance, why I should pay another tax, but I am using road like other people? GM is against it - it will impede EV adoption. Kansas seems to propose highest tax but 26 Volts and no Leaf, if I am correct. Bu the way picture from DFW or Houston?
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/road-use-by-e-v-drivers-to-tax-or-not-to-tax/

add your comments.
http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/15/road-use-by-e-v-drivers-to-tax-or-not-to-tax/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
WA State Senate passed a bill yesterday to propose a $100 annual fee for EVs. with WA's 37.5 cent per gallon gas tax that is the same as driving a 45 mpg car 12,000 miles. now, i agree EVs should pay something but i think it should be mileage based. you simply report your odometer reading when you renew your tabs. lie about it if you want because you will be responsible for that odometer reading when you sell the car and your buyer is unlikely to support your lie...

now, i cant be too unhappy simply because WA has been one of the leaders in supporting EVs and they have done with with their pocketbook. this annual fee will never be recouped if it was to offset the tax break i got (tax free purchases of EVs in the state) which is 3rd highest in the country (not sure of that. it is perennially in the top 5 since we dont have state income tax)

but i think its a knee jerk reaction started by some lady who is probably still driving her 14 mpg SUV.

now, i am ok with it if it passes but this penalizes another segment of the EV population and that is NEVs which we probably have more than our fair share since we were the first (with Montana a close 2nd) to allow them to drive 35 mph (national limit was 25) which made them popular. i drove a Zenn for 3+ years but because it was a 2 seater it was pretty much a commuter only with a 3 member household so i only averaged 4271 miles per year which would have effectively charge me a gas tax equivalent of a BUCK!!

at 1200 lbs it would be hard to justify paying for "my fair share of road wear and tear!"
 
Pciture has got to be from Houston as the only DC charger in Dallas doesn't look like that position at all (its in the back of a black asphalt parking lot.

The "road tax" via gas purchase is a concern to governments and transportation planners. Firstly, it really points out the archaic way of taxing via gas used. But I won't get into that. I honestly don't mind paying my portion since I am paying none, but I want it to be fair:

1) If issued by the state you could do either just state only or both fed and state, but it needs to be consistant and explained
2) The tax CANNOT be too high, i.e. the state of washington is proposing a $100 straight up cost. If this was texas that is way too high. I bought a fuel efficent car for a reason. I would pay almost as much for gas tax than a Prius would. That is NOT EQUAL!!!!!!!!
3) Base the tax off of the EPA MPGE efficiency. To me this is the only fair way. Yes we can get alot more but its hard to prove and more difficult for a government to implement. Just using the EPA MPGE (99 in our case) is a good start point. Take the 99 and either divide by the amount miles traveled (if they want to do that) or the average yearly miles traveled (I think its 15,000k - I am ok with that) and then times your gas tax rate to get a REAL #.

Obviously there are ways to make this more accurate but it takes more effort and calcuations. Just using the car's MPGE with 15,000k a year times the gas tax for the state gives a solid number. Putting some arbitrary cost is wrong. I feel like I am being punished for buying a fuel efficent car and helping the region meet air quality attainment.

Just an FYI, texas is a combined 38.4, using this basic formula, I would pay $58.18, which isn't much. In contrast a prius pays (using the same formula) $115.20. I honestly think these states trying to look at this are missing out millions of dollars. While its good to set things up now, they are actually not going to make that much money. I know for sure there are about 250 volts and leafs in DFW, pretending there are 250 in houston, 250 in austin-san antonio and nother 250 randomly, that's about 1,000 in texas (seems like a good estimate). The state would get $58,180 dollars for all of us. The cost of implementation would end up costing the state more money. Thats barely one person's salary plus adding the equipment (computers), mailouts, and processings. It may be a money looser at this point there are so few.

The biggest concern is extended range or plug-in hybrids. They still use gas, sometimes, if they use the range....How is this computed? Its even more unfair to slap the same cost to them since they are paying some fuel tax. How is this normalized? Even VMT is not that fair, one could drive totally on a volt battery 70 miles a day without gas assuming they got a charge at home and at the destination, yet a volt without a destination charger uses almost a gallon of gas. So non-BEV plug ins create a greater problem to solve.

Regardless a single fee for all plug-ins is quite unbalanced. But at the current amount of vehicles on the road, I don't think these states should be worrying about this yet. FYI 50k for roadway improvements is, maybe one asphalt overlay on one road. States like texas, on a VERY CONSTRAINED BUDGET get about 6-8 billion per year. A very small drop in the bucket for alot of additional effort. As for the comment about weight effects on a road, coming from transportation work, the difference between a smart car versus a large pickup truck is very very very very very small, so small it isn't even calculatable. But compared to a medium trucks (u-haul size) and large trucks (semis) the difference is quite large. My boss's 2 seater porshe weighs almost as much as my leaf - weight is really a mute point when discussing the car/truck/motorcycle section.
 
Pipcecil said:
The state would get $58,180 dollars for all of us. The cost of implementation would end up costing the state more money. Thats barely one person's salary plus adding the equipment (computers), mailouts, and processings. It may be a money looser at this point there are so few.
Exactly, KS State Representative Tom Sloane worry so much that is not going to get tax from now 26 cars at most $500 total, I do not believe that this is the biggest problem there. Maybe best for now to apply economics, and start when it make financial sense.
 
the only reason to do this in kansas where there are almost no EVs is to suck up to the oil industry and kick the treehuggers in the nuts.
another climate-change denier among the goopers.
this makes as much sense as taxing snowshoes in Miami.
 
The gas tax model will fail eventually. Here's an idea -- one lump sum payable when you get/renew your drivers' license. Simple. Pay to play. Either that, or fund roads from general revenues. We all depend on the infrastructure whether we drive a car or not.
 
I support the idea of a tax based on miles driven and the weight of your vehicle. This can be assessed during your yearly inspection.

However. The number of EVs on the road right now is so small it really isn't an issue. I would say the government should wait until there is a certain percentage, say at least 5% or something like that. We don't want to bog down the EV movement so early in the game.
 
garygid said:
What do they do now for "road/fuel tax" on
busses, trucks, and cars using CNG?
In Tennessee, each vehicle is assessed a "wheel tax" during the annual registration renewal process. I am pretty sure it is the same for similar sized vehicles driven for personal use. At least the wheel tax for my Porsche 928, My Pathfinder and My Leaf are all the same -- $49.00

For alternative energy vehicles which have ICE's there is a "fuel usage" fee which is collected quarterly. The state issues a sticker which is placed into the windshield and the number of which is copied down when refueling. This is for Propane and CNG vehicles. There is no fee (as yet) for CNG pumping at home using the Honda home CNG device. There is no fee for steam power or other non-ICE engines. This will be an interesting subject to come up in the legislature when the Cyclone Company's drop in replacement engine for ICE's becomes available in 2016 (http://cyclonepower.com/works.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).

The road people have to fund the highways somehow and considering how much they pay in bribes here in Tennessee to the private DOT contractors, it's amazing that they don't charge more of a wheel tax.

Course on the other hand some-folks are pretty cheap -- you could bribe just about any highway patrolman with a cooked ham or turkey until the local TV stations got wind of it a few years ago.
 
The gas tax as a surgate for usage funding source for highways has reached the end of its usefull life. Politicians seem to vaguely comprehend this, but can't make the leap to a new model. So they pick up on new taxes for EVs instead of taxing based on a direct measure of usage, or just funding from general funds.
 
Nubo said:
fund roads from general revenues. We all depend on the infrastructure whether we drive a car or not.
This. Money is fungible. This is what happens anyway; the idea that gas taxes pay directly for roads is just a ruse perpetuated in order to allow the government to levy another regressive tax.
 
fooljoe said:
This. Money is fungible. This is what happens anyway; the idea that gas taxes pay directly for roads is just a ruse perpetuated in order to allow the government to levy another regressive tax.
I'd much rather a specific tax be levied on, and the money used on, a specific thing. Letting funds pile up in a general fund makes it too easy to divert funds away from where it's actually needed. In that respect, specified tax revenues are only fungible one-way and only to a certain limit.
=Smidge=
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
Is it true that one truck puts more wear on pavement than 10,000 cars?

I always wondered about that too. If there is even a small bit of truth to this, would it make any sense to build an interstate system just for trucks? Build it with better materials so it holds up better. Without trucks on the road, would the highways last longer and be in much better repair?
 
Smidge204 said:
I'd much rather a specific tax be levied on, and the money used on, a specific thing. Letting funds pile up in a general fund makes it too easy to divert funds away from where it's actually needed. In that respect, specified tax revenues are only fungible one-way and only to a certain limit.
=Smidge=
Sounds good in theory but in practice we see what we're seeing now with the topic at hand. EVs come around that don't pay any gas tax, and (much more importantly) cars in general become more fuel efficient, so the revenue from the tax decreases while the need for roadwork is ever-increasing. Rather than simply fixing the problem out of the general fund as they should, policy makers use the idea of the gas tax as an excuse to let the roads fall into disrepair until they can safely pass off another tax on us. And the cycle repeats.

If you're concerned about a particular item not getting its fair allocation of general fund dollars, then you should support a law requiring that a certain percentage of the general fund be devoted to that item, irrespective of the source of the money. Of course that approach is not without its own problems, as we've seen in California...
 
LakeLeaf said:
LTLFTcomposite said:
Is it true that one truck puts more wear on pavement than 10,000 cars?
I always wondered about that too.
Yes, numerous studies on vehicle weight and road wear. 10,000 might be an exaggeration, this study says that one truck is about 1000 cars (but the truck at most weighs about 25 times more than the car).

http://facweb.knowlton.ohio-state.edu/pviton/courses2/crp394/394-roads-beam.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One quote from this study:
When discussing road wear cars don't matter: road damage is effectively caused by trucks
If you travel on any road where heavy vehicles normally only travel in one lane, you'll notice much higher road wear there. Right lane of highways is often in much worse shape than left lanes. Pavement in front of bus stops is often concrete instead of asphalt - or you'll find it deteriorating much faster than other lanes.

LakeLeaf said:
If there is even a small bit of truth to this, would it make any sense to build an interstate system just for trucks? Build it with better materials so it holds up better. Without trucks on the road, would the highways last longer and be in much better repair?
There's really two types of road construction - asphalt and concrete. Concrete lasts much longer and handlers big loads better, but costs a lot more. Dedicated lanes would only make sense if there was enough truck traffic to keep the lane full. It might make sense in some cases to pave the truck lane with concrete instead of asphalt.
 
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