palmermd
Posts: 2565
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Leaf Number: 1100011011
Location: Hermosa Beach, CA

Re: climate control on L1 charging?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 12:19 pm

If the trickle charger is 12 amps then you should have enough power for both heating or cooling. I thought I saw somewhere it was 8 amp and that might not cut it, but the latest information on the Nissan site says 12amps, so that should be enough (1440 watts).
Michael

Leaf from 31 March 2011 - Traded 18 April 2018 for Tesla Model 3 Unicorn
Driving electric since 1996


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gudy
Posts: 306
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:17 am
Delivery Date: 20 May 2011
Location: Mountain View, CA

Re: climate control on L1 charging?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 1:47 pm

Jimmydreams wrote:I just had a chat with the Nissan people.


you still trust what they say in the chat? When I asked them about order dates last saturday, the guy told me my time would come and that many people had already ordered their leaf ...

Code: Select all

Me:
it's the 28th of august already, and I still haven't received any instructions

Me:
I was wondering if you knew when I would actually be able to order

Justin:
You will receive an email letting you know its time for you to order. I do appreciate your patients.

Justin:
I do not have an exact date for you <Me>, only the month. You will be contacted for order instructions before months end. Many people have already placed their orders for their LEAF.


A few months back, when asking about the fact that I would have to order a car even before seeing it, they told me :

Code: Select all

Meg:
There will be test drives available later this year, but they will begin after the launch markets have been invited to make a finalized order. You have the option to wait until you have gotten a test drive to make a final order. However this may affect your delivery date. The order phase will not be refundable, it will require you to (at the end of the ordering process) go to your local Nissan LEAF certified dealer to sign the paperwork and go over the financing.

Me:
and if I make a firm order in august, I'll have to pay / finance the full amount of the car at that time ?

Meg:
No <Me>, but the agreements will be signed and possibly your down payment will be requested. As dealerships are responsible for that stage of the purchasing process, I would recommend contacting your preferred Nissan LEAF certified dealer and asking your questions.


which, at that time really did let me believe there would be an additional fee to make a firm order. (I've actually been really pleased there wasn't one).

Anyway, I hope that we can cool / heat the car with L1 charging, but their chat support isn't a very reliable source of information imho.
1st Leaf Order (order made and confirmed on 08/31 10:40am)
Delivered on December 11th 2010
15000 miles so far

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turbo2ltr
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Leaf Number: 185
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: climate control on L1 charging?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:17 pm

I have to agree about the chat as well as the people in india that answer the phone. They are even more clueless than us. lol

The lady I talked to on tuesday had never heard that etec people get free charge port. She kept telling my I have to pay for a charger.


Thanks for all the answers... guess we'll have to find out the hard way.
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garygid
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Re: climate control on L1 charging?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 2:29 pm

Yes, sir! We are betting your bippy. And, I am adding, being happy to be doing talking with such as you, sir!
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
2010 Prius, now for sale
2011 LEAF, sold in 2015
2018 Tesla Model 3
2014 Tesla S, Model 3 in 2019
PU: SDG&E
Solar PV: 33 x 225W -> 7 kW max AC
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wwhitney
Posts: 751
Joined: Sat Jul 17, 2010 10:10 am
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Location: Berkeley, CA

Re: climate control on L1 charging?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:06 pm

evnow wrote:That is debatable. For one there is the comfort question - obviously better to preheat by the time you get into the car.

Oh, I agree that it would be more comfortable. But as I said, I was talking about "battery demand reduction". For that matter, for the purposes of "battery demand reduction", you shouldn't heat or cool at all. :-)

My main point is that if you are in a situation where you'll be leaving before the battery will be full (without doing any preheating/precooling), then doing the preheating/precooling on L1 will reduce your range somewhat (maybe it is negligible). We know the power available on L1 is less than what the battery charger can use, so it's a zero sum game. And if you start heating/cooling sooner, you'll use more energy for that.

Now on L2 this might not be the case. First, it might be the case that if the battery charger needs 3.3kw, and the HVAC needs 1.5kw, and the EVSE can supply 6.6kw, then in this situation the car can ask for 4.8 kw total. I don't know. Or, if the charge rate slows down as you near full, then once you hit that regime, the system might be able to divert some of the 3.3kw to the heater. This is all speculation.

Of course, if you've charged your battery to full, none of this matters.

Cheers, Wayne

LEAFguy
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Re: climate control on L1 charging?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:16 pm

wwhitney wrote:it might be the case that if the battery charger needs 3.3kw, and the HVAC needs 1.5kw, and the EVSE can supply 6.6kw, then in this situation the car can ask for 4.8 kw total. I don't know.


That is a very interesting speculation, and one that I suspect may be valid. AndyH or Gary? You guys seem to know about this stuff.

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Jimmydreams
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Re: climate control on L1 charging?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:30 pm

gudy wrote:you still trust what they say in the chat? When I asked them about order dates last saturday, the guy told me my time would come and that many people had already ordered their leaf ...


No, I don't take the CHAT people as Gospel, because they often know less than we do.

But it makes sense to me that if you can heat and cool a room in your house with a 110v outlet, then you can easily do the same for the Leaf. And since you can heat/cool a room in your house with ONLY that 110v outlet, I'm assuming you can do the same on the Leaf WITHOUT dipping into the stored energy in your batteries. IOW, your SOC when you start preheating/cooling your car will remain the same or go up a teeny tiny bit. But it won't go DOWN. SOC = range.

The chat people seem to think this is the case, so I'll go with them and what makes sense to me. We won't know until someone plugs into an L1 charger and turns up or down the climate controls. :twisted:
JimmyD
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smkettner
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Location: Orange County, CA

Re: climate control on L1 charging?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:33 pm

I wonder if the cabin climate heater was left on in a cold climate how much that would help to keep the battery warm in the absence of the cold weather package.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
RAV4 traded in for I-Pace Dec 2018

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EVDRIVER
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Re: climate control on L1 charging?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 3:56 pm

palmermd wrote:
Jimmydreams wrote:Do we know if heating/cooling takes more eneergy than is provided by an L1 charge? I can't imagine that it does.

I would think that during preheating/cooling the car while on L1 charging, you won't be ADDING any energy to your batteries, but I can't imagine that you'd be taking away from your SOC (State Of Charge). How much power does the heater/cooler really use???

ex. L1 charge provides 1000 watts to the battery for charging purposes (made up numbers!)
Heating might take 900 watts, leaving 100 watts (+100) going TO your SOC. (very little charging going on, since most of your energy from L1 is going to the heater.)
Cooling might use 750 watts, leaving 250 (+250) going TO your SOC. (a little more charging, but still not much)
Turn on heating, radio, NAV, fans on high, windshield wipers AND headlights, might use 1500 watts, leaving -500 watts coming FROM your SOC. (now, you're taking charge AWAY from your batteries and decreasing range)

Do we have any hard numbers yet on how many watts L1 provides for charge vs how many watts heating/cooling uses??


Most EV heaters for a vehicle cabin that size are about 1500 watts. A/C will be less (my guess is closer to 1000 watts), but I have not seen any numbers on the Leaf's System for cooling. For that matter I've not seen specific numbers for the heater either.

edit: this is why I wish there were seat heaters. I would not preheat the car but just turn on the seat heater which would use far less power than the cabin heater.



You are thinking conversions, even the old think had a 4-5kw resistive heater, I would expect the one on the leaf to be about 4-5kw. In order for heating or cooling on 120 to happen it will likely need to draw from the pack or shut charging off automatically and even with charging off it will need to regulate heat output to a low level to prevent tripping the circuit. A 1-1.3kw heater in a COLD car will heat it but not quickly. It's possible to do this but there will be NO charging happening so that must be calculated into the equation. If you live in S. CA this is could work but if you live in a cold climate 1.5 kw is going to take some time. If the pack is full and it runs for a while before you leave it makes sense. I had two 1.5kw cores in one of my conversions and it was ok on a small car, the Think heater worked well in CA.

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planet4ever
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Re: climate control on L1 charging?

Fri Sep 03, 2010 4:16 pm

LEAFguy wrote:
wwhitney wrote:it might be the case that if the battery charger needs 3.3kw, and the HVAC needs 1.5kw, and the EVSE can supply 6.6kw, then in this situation the car can ask for 4.8 kw total. I don't know.

That is a very interesting speculation, and one that I suspect may be valid. AndyH or Gary? You guys seem to know about this stuff.

Do you really think the HVAC will run directly on shore power, and be 120v/240v capable? I don't. I suspect it will run on DC off the battery. In that case, the 3.3kW charger is still the choke point.
End of April 2013: Traded my 2011 SL for a 2013 S with charge pkg.

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