GRA
Posts: 9512
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Improving energy efficency of climate control

Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:03 pm

Via GCC:
Visio.M partners showcasing energy efficient passenger climate control for EVs
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/04 ... 5-tum.html
Last edited by GRA on Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 9512
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Improving energy efficency of climate control

Wed Jun 03, 2015 6:36 pm

Another attempt along the same lines, via GCC:
US$7.5M JOSPEL project to develop energy efficient climate control for EVs; leveraging Joule and Peltier effects
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/06 ... ospel.html

Aim is to reduce energy usage by 50%.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

rmay635703
Posts: 467
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:43 pm

Re: Improving energy efficency of climate control

Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:09 am

You need to heat or cool the person,

a long term gripe of mine is poor thermal insulation in cars.
Composite windows would greatly improve this and passive screening (summer months) would help greatly.

Heating the ductwork and firewall is very inefficient, especially with the conductive materials typically used that are also exposed to the outside environment.

Regen is also most efficiently used to generate heat and not charge batteries so a throttled heater with a heat sync (to store heat)
would increase overall efficiency.

mjblazin
Posts: 229
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:52 pm
Delivery Date: 11 Mar 2015
Leaf Number: 405999
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: Improving energy efficency of climate control

Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:31 am

The Leaf has many fine features, but insulation is not one of them. I can tell by the sounds I hear from nearby and passing cars that Nissan scrimped in that department. I get the impression the passenger compartment is a thin shell around person(s) on leather seats and around very good electronics. The weight should not make a difference, but maybe hundred pounds does at the outer edge of performance curve.
2013 SL Blue Ocean
Bought used, March 2015 12,764 miles
4th bar drop 56 month, 20,200 miles, AHr at 42.1
Replaced battery.
Appears fully loaded
Condo home, Using public charge except in emergency
Dallas, TX downtown, shaded non-temp controlled garage

User avatar
TickTock
Posts: 1701
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2011 10:30 pm
Delivery Date: 31 May 2011
Leaf Number: 3626
Location: Queen Creek, Arizona
Contact: Website

Re: Improving energy efficency of climate control

Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:51 am

GRA wrote:Another attempt along the same lines, via GCC:
US$7.5M JOSPEL project to develop energy efficient climate control for EVs; leveraging Joule and Peltier effects
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/06 ... ospel.html

Aim is to reduce energy usage by 50%.

Hmmm. Cannot figure out how contracting rubber bands helps (Joule effect) and there is no mention of it in the paper. I think they probably were referring to Joule heating which is exactly what the 2011 Nissan Leafs do and is the source of all the heater use vs. range issues. This is why Nissan switched to the heat pump in later years. Also, Peltier junctions, while lightweight and fast, are *horribly* inefficient (even worse than Joule heating). This sure sounds like a waste of money to me or, perhaps, a good story for The Onion.

GRA
Posts: 9512
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Improving energy efficency of climate control

Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:27 pm

Via GCC:
Fraunhofer researchers develop carbon nanotube thin film heater for EVs
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/09 ... hofer.html

Lab stage.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

NeilBlanchard
Posts: 619
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 5:02 pm
Delivery Date: 14 Oct 2014
Leaf Number: 306278

Re: Improving energy efficency of climate control

Thu Sep 03, 2015 10:33 am

Direct heating defroster - these were don in the '70's and 80's by Ford, with a molecule thick layer of gold. It worked quickly and with a fraction of the energy used by what we have now. The e-Golf has a direct heating defroster that uses tiny wires embedded in the glass; but it is not very strong, and doesn't work on ice.

Thermal insulation is another obvious improvement.

Heated seats and steering wheel we already have. With a heated vest / jacket and a plug next to each seat would be better.

On the cooling side, we could have much better passive air flow through the car, and this could actually improve the drag of the car. Low-E glass would be a huge improvement, as well.

GRA
Posts: 9512
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Improving energy efficency of climate control

Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:12 pm

NeilBlanchard wrote:Direct heating defroster - these were don in the '70's and 80's by Ford, with a molecule thick layer of gold. It worked quickly and with a fraction of the energy used by what we have now. The e-Golf has a direct heating defroster that uses tiny wires embedded in the glass; but it is not very strong, and doesn't work on ice.

Thermal insulation is another obvious improvement.

Heated seats and steering wheel we already have. With a heated vest / jacket and a plug next to each seat would be better.

On the cooling side, we could have much better passive air flow through the car, and this could actually improve the drag of the car. Low-E glass would be a huge improvement, as well.

The general public isn't going to accept the need to wear specific clothes to drive/ride, so AFAIC recommending heated clothing is an admission that an auto maker has no intention of appealing to more than a tiny hard-core niche audience. The rest, yes, insulation and electrically heated glass can work - I've got heated mirrors and the base of the windshield (to unfreeze wiper blades) on my Forester. There have been issues with the B-Class' heated windshield, as the wires are apparently quite visible at certain sun angles, to the point where they're distracting or block some vision. Electric rear defrosters aren't really a problem for anyone, especially with rear cameras becoming ubiquitous.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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