DIY Lizard pack install into a 2011/12 Leaf, doable?

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Valdemar

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2011
Messages
2,674
Location
Oak Park, CA
I missed out on the free battery bingo and now weighing my options on breathing a new life in my Leaf a couple years down the road that doesn't involve a transfer of my hard earned cash to Nissan Co. As we now know our friendly manufacturer made every effort to ensure everyone taking this route will suffer at least some amount of pain because you cannot just take a healthy used pack and drop it in your car. Based on what I understand you need to keep your original controller and transplant individual modules from a donor pack to the old housing, or move your battery controller to the donor pack. Easy enough if both packs are using the same type of modules, but who wants a 2011/12 battery with its history of problems in warm places. So here I am, contemplating finding a 2015 or later pack from a wrecked Leaf and putting modules from it into my 2011 pack. Mechanical incompatibilities aside, what can possibly go wrong? First and foremost is of course safety, is it possible that the old BMS will charge the new modules above safe levels increasing the risk of fire? Is the low SOC protection, i.e. opening battery contactor, will happen before it is too late? Anything else? Getting the new 30kWh pack modules working in 2011 would be super sweet, but let's not jump too far ahead :)
 
If you don't have access to a Nissan tech who can mate the new pack to the old car, then I would first look at swapping the modules from the new pack to the old one. If that is not going to work, I would look at moving the controller board from the old pack to the new one. There are a couple adapter kits needed to mount the 2013+ batteries into the 2011/12 models. The BMS is supposed to monitor voltage levels and charge states to protect the pack, so overcharging should not be an issue.

Contact your local Nissan Service Department. Maybe they will do the swap for a reasonable fee.

My interest lies in putting a 2016+ pack into my 2013 SV.
 
A Nissan tech won't be able to do anything as a special key card is required for the pairing process, so far all indicates that this card is only supplied with a new pack and have to be sent back once a battery swap is complete. I understand the theory. The 2015 modules are slightly different so the 2011 controller may not be fully compatible with them. Basically I'd like to hear some opinions if this is a valid concern, and say differences in operating voltages between 11/15 modules can lead to unsafe conditions.
 
The Lizard pack can operate at a very slightly higher voltage so when it is installed in a 2011, for example, it is just fine but there is a very slight loss of possible capacity due to it not charging to that higher voltage due to the old BMS...

Valdemar said:
Basically I'd like to hear some opinions if this is a valid concern, and say differences in operating voltages between 11/15 modules can lead to unsafe conditions.
 
A couple of very interesting videos. This looks like a pre-2013 pack. A controller swap seems like an easier way to go unless there was a harness change (likely).

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0dDHJKzX78[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-z4o8y2RR2A[/youtube]
 
Turns out in other parts of the world reverse engineering of the Leaf battery progressed much further than in the US, unless the once who did it here are keeping it to themselves. People hacked into BMS firmware and can freely change stored AHR values and restore the display to 12 bars. They can also pair BMS with the Leaf. All this w/o using Consult III. Unfortunately they don't want to share the details, but I tend to believe they are telling the truth. Not clear if a pack disassembly is required to grab the BMS firmware image from the flash or you can do it over ODB2, but once it is done I suspect you just spend a lot of time with a hex editor looking for the offsets where the ID, AHr, and the checksum are stored, write the new values, and flash it back.
 
Turns out in other parts of the world reverse engineering of the Leaf battery progressed much further than in the US, unless the once who did it here are keeping it to themselves. People hacked into BMS firmware and can freely change stored AHR values and restore the display to 12 bars. They can also pair BMS with the Leaf. All this w/o using Consult III. Unfortunately they don't want to share the details, but I tend to believe they are telling the truth. Not clear if a pack disassembly is required to grab the BMS firmware image from the flash or you can do it over ODB2, but once it is done I suspect you just spend a lot of time with a hex editor looking for the offsets where the ID, AHr, and the checksum are stored, write the new values, and flash it back.

Hi. Do you have any links to other information about the person/people doing this? Are they planning to sell a tool to allow others to do this? I can understand if they are looking to profit from all their time/effort but surely that would involve selling a tool or something wouldn't it?
 
I don't think they plan to sell a tool. Even if they did I doubt they could sell many of those.

Turns out they only reverse engineered gen 1 Leaf LBC, so their 'know how' is of limited use as most of us want to upgrade their 2011/12 to a later pack design. They mentioned that gen 2 LBC firmware is completely different. Still this gives hope someone will eventually figure out a way to program a new pack to the car without the Nissan supplied id card.
 
Thanks for the info Valdemar. Even if it is only for the Gen 1, it still sounds really interesting to me and is certainly a move in the right direction. Do you know if their work so far has been limited to monitoring and replicating CAN bus communications the LBC and Consult III+ or if they have actually managed to read the firmware out of the microprocessor in the LBC? Based on your description of what you say they can do, it sounds like it is all the same things that Consult III+ can do if you had the battery registration card. So I'm guessing they managed to get Consult III+ and the card and monitored the communications then replicated it all without using Consult III+. If that's the case then that is still a really good effort and should be commended.

Furthermore, it would be really cool if someone managed to read/write the firmware in the microprocessor in the LBC. There is a lot of good information in this post, but doesn't appear that anyone posting in there has managed to read/write the firmware yet.

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17470&start=20
 
I don't know the exact details but I suspect it's brute force, they managed to read the firmware or more likely the contents of NVRAM/flash data storage segment and by trial and error identified the locations where interesting data such as Ahr, capacity bars, and probably pairing info (controller id?) is stored, then they modify the image and flash it back. It is not clear whether they can do it over CAN or physically at the PCB. The latter would be less interesting as it involves pack disassembly which sort of defeats the purpose as you can just move the modules/LBC if you're already there.
 
Valdemar said:
..... breathing a new life in my Leaf a couple years down the road that doesn't involve a transfer of my hard earned cash to Nissan Co...

By that time the used value of 2015s or even 2016s will probably be as low as 12s are going for now. You'd be much better off to just trade in for a used car, technically that isn't giving money to Nissan, there's 0 down time for you and you might even still be under warrantee.

Last I checked to buy a wrecked leaf you're looking at at least $4k plus the cost of getting it to you.
 
minispeed said:
Valdemar said:
..... breathing a new life in my Leaf a couple years down the road that doesn't involve a transfer of my hard earned cash to Nissan Co...

By that time the used value of 2015s or even 2016s will probably be as low as 12s are going for now. You'd be much better off to just trade in for a used car, technically that isn't giving money to Nissan, there's 0 down time for you and you might even still be under warrantee.

Last I checked to buy a wrecked leaf you're looking at at least $4k plus the cost of getting it to you.

The hope is to be able to find a take-off battery pack by itself for $2k or less. If I were to trade in my Leaf I'd probably get something else, getting tired of it already.
 
I haven't looked into it much yet, but the special battery card _might_ only be required when installing a fresh brand new battery. IE for installing the initial ID code into a virgin LBC/BMS. My thought is that there is a procedure for pairing a replacement VCM to an existing battery, in which case I'd assume you wouldn't have access to the special battery card. There may also be two different cards. I've seen reference to a generic battery security card available for purchase with consult 3+, and also reference to this special "one time" use card that comes with a new battery. Either way, requires consult 3+ so probably moot. Though there are some indications it may be possible to run a hacked version of consult 3+ software with a generic j2534 passthru adapter. Haven't gotten a chance to explore that yet.

Rob
 
Valdemar said:
minispeed said:
Valdemar said:
..... breathing a new life in my Leaf a couple years down the road that doesn't involve a transfer of my hard earned cash to Nissan Co...

By that time the used value of 2015s or even 2016s will probably be as low as 12s are going for now. You'd be much better off to just trade in for a used car, technically that isn't giving money to Nissan, there's 0 down time for you and you might even still be under warrantee.

Last I checked to buy a wrecked leaf you're looking at at least $4k plus the cost of getting it to you.

The hope is to be able to find a take-off battery pack by itself for $2k or less. If I were to trade in my Leaf I'd probably get something else, getting tired of it already.


Used leaf packs have already proved popular in supplying the conversion crowd so I doubt that their price will fall the same way used parts for other old cars fall. Think how the type R Honda engine goes for a lot more used than any other civic engine.

People who sell wrecked cars will probably not increase the value of them because of that but if you're looking to find someone that has already taken the pack out and is selling it you'd then have to compete with people who want to put the packs into something else other than the leaf.

Right now half the pack goes for $3k. I doubt that the full pack will drop to $2k anytime soon. You may also find that the people buying them up and stocking them are selling the cases for scrap as soon as they get them. Unless someone else does the hard work first to actually try and fit one and then publishes how to do it I doubt you will find a pack to buy without getting the whole car. Just my opinion for what it's worth.
 
minispeed said:
Valdemar said:
minispeed said:
By that time the used value of 2015s or even 2016s will probably be as low as 12s are going for now. You'd be much better off to just trade in for a used car, technically that isn't giving money to Nissan, there's 0 down time for you and you might even still be under warrantee.

Last I checked to buy a wrecked leaf you're looking at at least $4k plus the cost of getting it to you.

The hope is to be able to find a take-off battery pack by itself for $2k or less. If I were to trade in my Leaf I'd probably get something else, getting tired of it already.


Used leaf packs have already proved popular in supplying the conversion crowd so I doubt that their price will fall the same way used parts for other old cars fall. Think how the type R Honda engine goes for a lot more used than any other civic engine.

People who sell wrecked cars will probably not increase the value of them because of that but if you're looking to find someone that has already taken the pack out and is selling it you'd then have to compete with people who want to put the packs into something else other than the leaf.

Right now half the pack goes for $3k. I doubt that the full pack will drop to $2k anytime soon. You may also find that the people buying them up and stocking them are selling the cases for scrap as soon as they get them. Unless someone else does the hard work first to actually try and fit one and then publishes how to do it I doubt you will find a pack to buy without getting the whole car. Just my opinion for what it's worth.

The conversion crowd is finite, over time their need for packs may well be over supplied as more and more totalled Leafs end up on junk yards. But sure, if the price doesn't make sense there isn't much you can do.
 
Valdemar said:
The conversion crowd is finite, over time their need for packs may well be over supplied as more and more totalled Leafs end up on junk yards. But sure, if the price doesn't make sense there isn't much you can do.

I agree with you, but I think the time frame you are looking at is the same time frame that will have the conversion crowd peak. The conversion crowd is small but still significant and from the little that I've done looking into it most of them have spent around $6-10k on batteries if they went with Li-ion to go 50-100 miles and spent less when they went with lead acid.

Over the next few years I'd predict that you'll see not only the new conversion crowd grow as the price drops but the lead acid to li-ion upgrades and small capacity pack upgrades buying up used leaf cells. In a few years no one will be left with a lead acid conversion and everyone will just buy the capacity they need when they start the build, then the prices will start to drop.

Just a theory though, I could be wrong and welcome anyone who thinks otherwise to express their opinion.
 
Well, if I had enough free time on my hands, and I'm sure some do, then $4-5k for a Leaf sounds like a good deal still if you're after the battery. Part it out, sell the parts on e-bay, keep the pack.
 
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