Valdemar
Posts: 2403
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: DIY Lizard pack install into a 2011/12 Leaf, doable?

Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:33 am

I don't think they plan to sell a tool. Even if they did I doubt they could sell many of those.

Turns out they only reverse engineered gen 1 Leaf LBC, so their 'know how' is of limited use as most of us want to upgrade their 2011/12 to a later pack design. They mentioned that gen 2 LBC firmware is completely different. Still this gives hope someone will eventually figure out a way to program a new pack to the car without the Nissan supplied id card.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

NocturnalWalt
Posts: 21
Joined: Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:50 am
Delivery Date: 02 Dec 2015

Re: DIY Lizard pack install into a 2011/12 Leaf, doable?

Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:27 pm

Thanks for the info Valdemar. Even if it is only for the Gen 1, it still sounds really interesting to me and is certainly a move in the right direction. Do you know if their work so far has been limited to monitoring and replicating CAN bus communications the LBC and Consult III+ or if they have actually managed to read the firmware out of the microprocessor in the LBC? Based on your description of what you say they can do, it sounds like it is all the same things that Consult III+ can do if you had the battery registration card. So I'm guessing they managed to get Consult III+ and the card and monitored the communications then replicated it all without using Consult III+. If that's the case then that is still a really good effort and should be commended.

Furthermore, it would be really cool if someone managed to read/write the firmware in the microprocessor in the LBC. There is a lot of good information in this post, but doesn't appear that anyone posting in there has managed to read/write the firmware yet.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=17470&start=20

Valdemar
Posts: 2403
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: DIY Lizard pack install into a 2011/12 Leaf, doable?

Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:43 pm

I don't know the exact details but I suspect it's brute force, they managed to read the firmware or more likely the contents of NVRAM/flash data storage segment and by trial and error identified the locations where interesting data such as Ahr, capacity bars, and probably pairing info (controller id?) is stored, then they modify the image and flash it back. It is not clear whether they can do it over CAN or physically at the PCB. The latter would be less interesting as it involves pack disassembly which sort of defeats the purpose as you can just move the modules/LBC if you're already there.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

minispeed
Posts: 681
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:52 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jul 2014
Location: Ancaster, ON

Re: DIY Lizard pack install into a 2011/12 Leaf, doable?

Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:01 pm

Valdemar wrote:..... breathing a new life in my Leaf a couple years down the road that doesn't involve a transfer of my hard earned cash to Nissan Co...


By that time the used value of 2015s or even 2016s will probably be as low as 12s are going for now. You'd be much better off to just trade in for a used car, technically that isn't giving money to Nissan, there's 0 down time for you and you might even still be under warrantee.

Last I checked to buy a wrecked leaf you're looking at at least $4k plus the cost of getting it to you.
2015 White SV, after one month 292 GIDS
Best 1 charge drive, 229km (143miles)

Valdemar
Posts: 2403
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: DIY Lizard pack install into a 2011/12 Leaf, doable?

Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:28 pm

minispeed wrote:
Valdemar wrote:..... breathing a new life in my Leaf a couple years down the road that doesn't involve a transfer of my hard earned cash to Nissan Co...


By that time the used value of 2015s or even 2016s will probably be as low as 12s are going for now. You'd be much better off to just trade in for a used car, technically that isn't giving money to Nissan, there's 0 down time for you and you might even still be under warrantee.

Last I checked to buy a wrecked leaf you're looking at at least $4k plus the cost of getting it to you.


The hope is to be able to find a take-off battery pack by itself for $2k or less. If I were to trade in my Leaf I'd probably get something else, getting tired of it already.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

miscrms
Posts: 141
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:25 am
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: DIY Lizard pack install into a 2011/12 Leaf, doable?

Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:30 pm

I haven't looked into it much yet, but the special battery card _might_ only be required when installing a fresh brand new battery. IE for installing the initial ID code into a virgin LBC/BMS. My thought is that there is a procedure for pairing a replacement VCM to an existing battery, in which case I'd assume you wouldn't have access to the special battery card. There may also be two different cards. I've seen reference to a generic battery security card available for purchase with consult 3+, and also reference to this special "one time" use card that comes with a new battery. Either way, requires consult 3+ so probably moot. Though there are some indications it may be possible to run a hacked version of consult 3+ software with a generic j2534 passthru adapter. Haven't gotten a chance to explore that yet.

Rob

minispeed
Posts: 681
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:52 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jul 2014
Location: Ancaster, ON

Re: DIY Lizard pack install into a 2011/12 Leaf, doable?

Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:48 pm

Valdemar wrote:
minispeed wrote:
Valdemar wrote:..... breathing a new life in my Leaf a couple years down the road that doesn't involve a transfer of my hard earned cash to Nissan Co...


By that time the used value of 2015s or even 2016s will probably be as low as 12s are going for now. You'd be much better off to just trade in for a used car, technically that isn't giving money to Nissan, there's 0 down time for you and you might even still be under warrantee.

Last I checked to buy a wrecked leaf you're looking at at least $4k plus the cost of getting it to you.


The hope is to be able to find a take-off battery pack by itself for $2k or less. If I were to trade in my Leaf I'd probably get something else, getting tired of it already.



Used leaf packs have already proved popular in supplying the conversion crowd so I doubt that their price will fall the same way used parts for other old cars fall. Think how the type R Honda engine goes for a lot more used than any other civic engine.

People who sell wrecked cars will probably not increase the value of them because of that but if you're looking to find someone that has already taken the pack out and is selling it you'd then have to compete with people who want to put the packs into something else other than the leaf.

Right now half the pack goes for $3k. I doubt that the full pack will drop to $2k anytime soon. You may also find that the people buying them up and stocking them are selling the cases for scrap as soon as they get them. Unless someone else does the hard work first to actually try and fit one and then publishes how to do it I doubt you will find a pack to buy without getting the whole car. Just my opinion for what it's worth.
2015 White SV, after one month 292 GIDS
Best 1 charge drive, 229km (143miles)

Valdemar
Posts: 2403
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: DIY Lizard pack install into a 2011/12 Leaf, doable?

Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:59 pm

minispeed wrote:
Valdemar wrote:
minispeed wrote:
By that time the used value of 2015s or even 2016s will probably be as low as 12s are going for now. You'd be much better off to just trade in for a used car, technically that isn't giving money to Nissan, there's 0 down time for you and you might even still be under warrantee.

Last I checked to buy a wrecked leaf you're looking at at least $4k plus the cost of getting it to you.


The hope is to be able to find a take-off battery pack by itself for $2k or less. If I were to trade in my Leaf I'd probably get something else, getting tired of it already.



Used leaf packs have already proved popular in supplying the conversion crowd so I doubt that their price will fall the same way used parts for other old cars fall. Think how the type R Honda engine goes for a lot more used than any other civic engine.

People who sell wrecked cars will probably not increase the value of them because of that but if you're looking to find someone that has already taken the pack out and is selling it you'd then have to compete with people who want to put the packs into something else other than the leaf.

Right now half the pack goes for $3k. I doubt that the full pack will drop to $2k anytime soon. You may also find that the people buying them up and stocking them are selling the cases for scrap as soon as they get them. Unless someone else does the hard work first to actually try and fit one and then publishes how to do it I doubt you will find a pack to buy without getting the whole car. Just my opinion for what it's worth.


The conversion crowd is finite, over time their need for packs may well be over supplied as more and more totalled Leafs end up on junk yards. But sure, if the price doesn't make sense there isn't much you can do.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

minispeed
Posts: 681
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:52 am
Delivery Date: 15 Jul 2014
Location: Ancaster, ON

Re: DIY Lizard pack install into a 2011/12 Leaf, doable?

Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:15 pm

Valdemar wrote:The conversion crowd is finite, over time their need for packs may well be over supplied as more and more totalled Leafs end up on junk yards. But sure, if the price doesn't make sense there isn't much you can do.


I agree with you, but I think the time frame you are looking at is the same time frame that will have the conversion crowd peak. The conversion crowd is small but still significant and from the little that I've done looking into it most of them have spent around $6-10k on batteries if they went with Li-ion to go 50-100 miles and spent less when they went with lead acid.

Over the next few years I'd predict that you'll see not only the new conversion crowd grow as the price drops but the lead acid to li-ion upgrades and small capacity pack upgrades buying up used leaf cells. In a few years no one will be left with a lead acid conversion and everyone will just buy the capacity they need when they start the build, then the prices will start to drop.

Just a theory though, I could be wrong and welcome anyone who thinks otherwise to express their opinion.
2015 White SV, after one month 292 GIDS
Best 1 charge drive, 229km (143miles)

Valdemar
Posts: 2403
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: DIY Lizard pack install into a 2011/12 Leaf, doable?

Mon Jan 11, 2016 7:34 pm

Well, if I had enough free time on my hands, and I'm sure some do, then $4-5k for a Leaf sounds like a good deal still if you're after the battery. Part it out, sell the parts on e-bay, keep the pack.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

Return to “Engineering”