AndyH
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Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Wed May 05, 2010 11:48 am

There are already chargers on the streets with CAN so that side of the puzzle is complete.

I think that most Leaf owners will stay in their 'commercial charge point' comfort zone. For the smaller market segment of folks that are comfortable making their own cables, they're likely to also be price conscious. I suspect the Chinese charger industry will capture more of the market. Time will tell.

Andy

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EVDRIVER
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Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Wed May 05, 2010 3:43 pm

AndyH wrote:There are already chargers on the streets with CAN so that side of the puzzle is complete.

I think that most Leaf owners will stay in their 'commercial charge point' comfort zone. For the smaller market segment of folks that are comfortable making their own cables, they're likely to also be price conscious. I suspect the Chinese charger industry will capture more of the market. Time will tell.

Andy



Chinese chargers are junk and mostly low power and there is a reason they don't make high power chargers and inverters. What do you mean by "There are already chargers on the streets with CAN so that side of the puzzle is complete"? The only decent CAN ready after market chargers for EVs with reasonable power are the Brusa models and to get 12KW wi cost you over $8K, these are truly isolated chargers with FULL software and CAN control to say the least. The PFC-50 is $3,300 and is not isolated, no software control, not CAN BUS. There will be many Leaf owners that would desire a reliable and portable, high-power charger.

AndyH
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Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Wed May 05, 2010 4:23 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:Chinese chargers are junk and mostly low power and there is a reason they don't make high power chargers and inverters. What do you mean by "There are already chargers on the streets with CAN so that side of the puzzle is complete"? The only decent CAN ready after market chargers for EVs with reasonable power are the Brusa models and to get 12KW wi cost you over $8K, these are truly isolated chargers with FULL software and CAN control to say the least. The PFC-50 is $3,300 and is not isolated, no software control, not CAN BUS. There will be many Leaf owners that would desire a reliable and portable, high-power charger.


I type from personal experience. I own a charger that is isolated, well built, efficient, and has CAN as an option - and it's less expensive than anything I've found for sale in the US. If later I choose to charge thru the Level 3 port, and have enough detail on the needs of the car to build or spec an interface, I'll have no problem using a higher-output version of the unit I have.

Andy

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EVDRIVER
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Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Thu May 06, 2010 7:25 am

AndyH wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:Chinese chargers are junk and mostly low power and there is a reason they don't make high power chargers and inverters. What do you mean by "There are already chargers on the streets with CAN so that side of the puzzle is complete"? The only decent CAN ready after market chargers for EVs with reasonable power are the Brusa models and to get 12KW wi cost you over $8K, these are truly isolated chargers with FULL software and CAN control to say the least. The PFC-50 is $3,300 and is not isolated, no software control, not CAN BUS. There will be many Leaf owners that would desire a reliable and portable, high-power charger.


I type from personal experience. I own a charger that is isolated, well built, efficient, and has CAN as an option - and it's less expensive than anything I've found for sale in the US. If later I choose to charge thru the Level 3 port, and have enough detail on the needs of the car to build or spec an interface, I'll have no problem using a higher-output version of the unit I have.

Andy



Can you please list the maker of this charger and the specs, thanks. Canadian charger perhaps?

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EVDRIVER
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Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Thu May 06, 2010 4:38 pm

Any info Andy? Thanks.... :D

Mesuge
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Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Sun May 09, 2010 7:41 am

EVdriver> about your chinese junk claim. Well the true situation is that while PiPrius PHEV conversions kits flopped (made by Manzanita Micro), no longer listed on their website, and in Rudman's own words he is still paying the bills for experiments/products in this area (did they ever sold any beyond known test vehicle upgrades?). In contrast, the chinese PHEV kits lead the market with more than hundred units sold, int. dealership growing as we speak, yes with some failed units in the early revisions. One can argue it was only because of the price for the U.S. made product, but that's not the entire story. One the other hand Manzanita chargers are not isolated, and usually recommended for serious diyes only, hot rodders who know what they are doing. That being said, Rich Rudman is perfectly positioned to offer 3rd party products for Leaf, Volt etc. in the future, but as you heard in the email we are not there yet.

In any case the idea of fast charging passive air cooled only batt. pack like Leaf's in combination with 3rd party supplied charging hardware sounds as quite risky proposition to me, perhaps after few years and demonstrated safety record by dozens of users this could be for larger public debate/consumption..

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evnow
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Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Sun May 09, 2010 7:59 am

EVDRIVER wrote: Chinese chargers are junk and mostly low power and there is a reason they don't make high power chargers and inverters.


What is the reason ?

China, just like other countries, can produce junk as well as good products. Depends on price. For a given price their products are hardly junk compared to products sourced from other countries.

Since almost every OECD manufacturer gets their stuff made in China, China now has very high level of expertise building all kinds of products of all kinds of quality. It is naive to paint all Chinese made products with the same brush.
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garygid
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Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Sun May 09, 2010 8:01 am

Even with an external charger supplying the DC power to charge the Leaf's battery pack, it seems clear that the Leaf's internal "Charge Controller" will be regulating the charge, using feedback from the on-board Battery Monitoring System.

As long as the external charger follows the Leaf's commands to control and stop the current flow, there should not be too much danger to the car itself.

Of course, if this external "Charge-Supply" does not respond properly, tries to put in too much current, fails in some way, or tries to take current out of the battery "without permission", the car will (most likely) object and protect itself.
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
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garygid
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Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Sun May 09, 2010 8:12 am

It is possible that using non-blessed (UL, L3) chargers with the Leaf could make battery-warranty claims harder to win. But, such use (any misuse, even from "approved", and any public chargers) is difficult to prove.

Hopefully the Leaf will do a good job of "protecting" its battery from damage, during hard driving, during regen, when near "empty" and near "full", and during all types and phases of charging.
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
2010 Prius, now for sale
2011 LEAF, sold in 2015
2018 Tesla Model 3
2014 Tesla S, Model 3 in 2019
PU: SDG&E
Solar PV: 33 x 225W -> 7 kW max AC
To Sell: X-treme 5000Li EV motorcycle

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EVDRIVER
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Re: contact with Rich Rudman from manzanitamicro

Sun May 09, 2010 9:10 am

EVDRIVER wrote:
AndyH wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:Chinese chargers are junk and mostly low power and there is a reason they don't make high power chargers and inverters. What do you mean by "There are already chargers on the streets with CAN so that side of the puzzle is complete"? The only decent CAN ready after market chargers for EVs with reasonable power are the Brusa models and to get 12KW wi cost you over $8K, these are truly isolated chargers with FULL software and CAN control to say the least. The PFC-50 is $3,300 and is not isolated, no software control, not CAN BUS. There will be many Leaf owners that would desire a reliable and portable, high-power charger.


I type from personal experience. I own a charger that is isolated, well built, efficient, and has CAN as an option - and it's less expensive than anything I've found for sale in the US. If later I choose to charge thru the Level 3 port, and have enough detail on the needs of the car to build or spec an interface, I'll have no problem using a higher-output version of the unit I have.

Andy



Can you please list the maker of this charger and the specs, thanks. Canadian charger perhaps?




I am quite aware of the pros and cons of PFC chargers and others and plug in hybrid packs don't need high power chargers so the point is mute. Andy implies a CAN based high power charger exists as stated above and I have yet to see such a charger and it would be great if he would post the price, model, specs and where to purchase such a quality product. Andy, would you be kind enough to do so as I would like to order one for a project since I don't intend to purchase any more Brusa products and I would like to avoid making interfaces for my PFC-50 projects.

Something is telling me "the" charger mentioned is not high power and can't match the specs of a PFC-50 at 12kw @ $3300 or the very high price of actually over $17K for a 12kw Brusa with CAN and isolation. Sure, I can source a low-power isolated charger with CAN but what good is that since the point was quick charging all along?

Yes, there are decent electronics products from China but I have yet to see a quality EV charger with high power. Anyone, please correct me on this one. Also, chargers like the BRUSA are sophisticated products with control software and multiple layers of software profiles that suit charging more complex chemistries, these are not easy to copy:) The Brusa could likely exceed the charging needs of the Leaf system in ALL technical respects if you have a pile of cash to burn for four of them, not to mention they would be quite large stacked up. Like most OEM quality EV components worth having, they are extremely costly.

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