Curb Weight

One more number we can zero in upon:

Motortrend said:

The car's acceleration betrays its rather hefty 3310-pound-plus curb weight

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Source

3310 lb (1501 kg).

That seems to be in the current range of estimates. You'd think by now they'd be pretty close to putting out the production data, but if we assume 1500 kg I think we're on the right track.

TimeHorse said:

One more number we can zero in upon:

Motortrend said:

The car's acceleration betrays its rather hefty 3310-pound-plus curb weight

Click to expand...

Source

3310 lb (1501 kg).

That seems to be in the current range of estimates. You'd think by now they'd be pretty close to putting out the production data, but if we assume 1500 kg I think we're on the right track.

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Still very heavy, the Leaf may be "designed as an EV" and not a conversion from an existing model but it is not a ground up design IMO. An EV only design should have weighed less than this, particularly with such a low weight pack compared to others with 33 kw or greater. For its size and pack it is heavy, a more refined design should able to reduce quite a bit of steel frame in the future and increase efficiency.

EVDRIVER said:

Still very heavy, the Leaf may be "designed as an EV" and not a conversion from an existing model but it is not a ground up design IMO. An EV only design should have weighed less than this, particularly with such a low weight pack compared to others with 33 kw or greater. For its size and pack it is heavy, a more refined design should able to reduce quite a bit of steel frame in the future and increase efficiency.

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Carbon Nano-Fiber would be a lot lighter and stronger than steel, but would make the LEAF more expensive than the Volt and perhaps as much as a Tesla Roadster.

TimeHorse said:

EVDRIVER said:

Still very heavy, the Leaf may be "designed as an EV" and not a conversion from an existing model but it is not a ground up design IMO. An EV only design should have weighed less than this, particularly with such a low weight pack compared to others with 33 kw or greater. For its size and pack it is heavy, a more refined design should able to reduce quite a bit of steel frame in the future and increase efficiency.

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Carbon Nano-Fiber would be a lot lighter and stronger than steel, but would make the LEAF more expensive than the Volt and perhaps as much as a Tesla Roadster.

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They don't need exotic materials to shave weight.

Here are the rest of the numbers from that article:

MotorTrend said:

Base price $32,780
Vehicle layout Front-engine, FWD, 5-pass, 4-door hatchback
Motor 108-hp/206-lb-ft AC electric
Transmission 1-speed automatic
Curb weight 3400 lb (mfr)
Wheelbase 106.3 in
Length x width x height 175.0 x 69.7 x 61.0 in
Installation Front, transverse, front-drive
0-60 mph 11.5 sec (mfr est)
EPA city/hwy fuel econ 350 mpg (est)
CO2 emissions 0.0 lb/mile
On sale in U.S. Fall 2010

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So they're actually claiming 3400 lb curb weight and 69.7 x 61.0 in for frontal area, assuming a mostly square frame; this includes the area under the car where the tires are but we know the side mirrors are fairly small.

That's 1,542 kg and 2.743 m**2 (upper bound). I wonder if this would fit in with Student's calculations?

Note the 0-60 of 11.5 seconds which is about right for it's specs and weight. In no way would I call this "V6" performance as Nissan has, only 0-60 but due to the weight and lower HP motor the acceleration to 60 is quite slow.

I thought Nissan said it was V6 performance from 0-30? Which all reviewers so far have agreed that it is quite fast from 0-30, but then less performance from 30-60.

Which is fine by me...this is after all a (mostly) city car...100 mile range (less likely) isn't going to take you far on the highways...and it is more a family car than a sports car.

Mostly city with the ability to so some light to moderate highway runs...sounds about right for the LEAF.

Gavin

Though I would love Nissan to find a way to lose about 400 pounds or more from the LEAF...But then I really don't want or need a family car for my commuting...I hope Nissan's second EV is more the size of the Fiat 500ev, and hopefully much much less weight than the LEAF...

Gavin said:

I thought Nissan said it was V6 performance from 0-30? Which all reviewers so far have agreed that it is quite fast from 0-30, but then less performance from 30-60.

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The idea is to race from one traffic light to the next and wait there for cyclists to catch up ...

Gavin said:

I thought Nissan said it was V6 performance from 0-30? Which all reviewers so far have agreed that it is quite fast from 0-30, but then less performance from 30-60.

Which is fine by me...this is after all a (mostly) city car...100 mile range (less likely) isn't going to take you far on the highways...and it is more a family car than a sports car.

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My plan is still to avoid lights and traffic, hit the highway early and hard and take great advantage of cruise control. Hopefully, that will be sufficient to get my my requisite 67 mi range per day.

TimeHorse said:

Gavin said:

I thought Nissan said it was V6 performance from 0-30? Which all reviewers so far have agreed that it is quite fast from 0-30, but then less performance from 30-60.

Which is fine by me...this is after all a (mostly) city car...100 mile range (less likely) isn't going to take you far on the highways...and it is more a family car than a sports car.

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My plan is still to avoid lights and traffic, hit the highway early and hard and take great advantage of cruise control. Hopefully, that will be sufficient to get my my requisite 67 mi range per day.

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You may do better with the cruise off for efficiency.

Gavin said:

Mostly city with the ability to so some light to moderate highway runs...sounds about right for the LEAF.

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I live in a fairly small "city" (35,000) with a slightly larger city 10 miles away in one direction and a giant metropolis 15 miles away in the other. Except when I'm driving around town (3 to 5 miles a day) I'm on the freeway going to one of the neighboring cities, and that happens quite frequently. I rarely travel much more than fifty miles in a day, so a Leaf should fit my needs, but most of the miles I put on it will be freeway miles. "Mostly city" certainly doesn't describe the way I intend to use my Leaf.

planet4ever said:

Gavin said:

Mostly city with the ability to so some light to moderate highway runs...sounds about right for the LEAF.

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I live in a fairly small "city" (35,000) with a slightly larger city 10 miles away in one direction and a giant metropolis 15 miles away in the other. Except when I'm driving around town (3 to 5 miles a day) I'm on the freeway going to one of the neighboring cities, and that happens quite frequently. I rarely travel much more than fifty miles in a day, so a Leaf should fit my needs, but most of the miles I put on it will be freeway miles. "Mostly city" certainly doesn't describe the way I intend to use my Leaf.

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That's my concern to; 67 mostly highway traveling from suburb to the edge of town and back again. Seems iffy but we'll see if I can get the state or my employer to help with HOV (which you should get) access or on-site charging.

EVDRIVER said:

Still very heavy, the Leaf may be "designed as an EV" and not a conversion from an existing model but it is not a ground up design IMO. An EV only design should have weighed less than this, particularly with such a low weight pack compared to others with 33 kw or greater. For its size and pack it is heavy, a more refined design should able to reduce quite a bit of steel frame in the future and increase efficiency.

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EVDRIVER - I 'get' from your many, ah, 'weighty' posts that you think the Leaf is too heavy. Something just doesn't seem right about your comments.

The efficiency poster-child for purpose-built EVs is the EV1. The lead-acid version was a bit over 3080 lbs and the NiMh as tested by the DOE tipped the scales at 2970 lbs. This was a two seat car that went thru multiple iterations to 'add lightness' and used a lot of aluminum and magnesium.

For an example of a real-world conversion, here's a Toyota Echo - gen 1 Prius body. It starts out at about 2100 lbs. Adding 650 lbs of lead and an AC drive system gives the owner, after paying about $23,000 for the conversion, a used car with no warranty, no significant cargo capacity, and an absolute max range of 35 miles.

I'm very happy if the Leaf weighs 3500 lbs - and tickled if the 3300 lb number is the real number.

Personally I don't care about the weight for gen 1. Nissan has, rightly, focussed on getting things that are consumer oriented right. I'm sure Nissan can and will reduce weight in later generations. May be aluminum hood/hatch, lower mass for the battery frame etc.

ps : I do care about the wight in the sense I think it is such a waste to carry around thousands of lbs in order to move a 150 lb person. But thats a different track ...

AndyH said:

EVDRIVER said:

Still very heavy, the Leaf may be "designed as an EV" and not a conversion from an existing model but it is not a ground up design IMO. An EV only design should have weighed less than this, particularly with such a low weight pack compared to others with 33 kw or greater. For its size and pack it is heavy, a more refined design should able to reduce quite a bit of steel frame in the future and increase efficiency.

Click to expand...

EVDRIVER - I 'get' from your many, ah, 'weighty' posts that you think the Leaf is too heavy. Something just doesn't seem right about your comments.

The efficiency poster-child for purpose-built EVs is the EV1. The lead-acid version was a bit over 3080 lbs and the NiMh as tested by the DOE tipped the scales at 2970 lbs. This was a two seat car that went thru multiple iterations to 'add lightness' and used a lot of aluminum and magnesium.

For an example of a real-world conversion, here's a Toyota Echo - gen 1 Prius body. It starts out at about 2100 lbs. Adding 650 lbs of lead and an AC drive system gives the owner, after paying about $23,000 for the conversion, a used car with no warranty, no significant cargo capacity, and an absolute max range of 35 miles.

I'm very happy if the Leaf weighs 3500 lbs - and tickled if the 3300 lb number is the real number.

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Ever built a conversion or owned a factory EV, a real lesson in weight management and the largest part of planning an EV build. I have owned sever OEM EVs and build several modern conversions and weight is a big deal, 300 lbs is a huge bit of weight, even in an ICE but the relative difference is not noted because of the energy density of gasoline, except for acceleration. The lower the weight the more efficient and the more allowance for battery capacity, this is why the EV1 was done this way and it's not marginal it's huge. It's a it silly to ignore the two most fundamental EV design principals, weight and aero. In a Think an extra passenger reduces range and there was no back seat for this reason and why they limited it to 55 MPH. As a "ground up EV" it is a bit over weight, I don't get the conversion comparisons as they are irrelevant to the fact the Leaf is a bit fat as a factory EV with it's pack size, it simply is. If it had a 30-33 kw pack it would be about right but it does not. The old RAV4 was about the same as an SUV conversion with a much heavier, larger pack and cooling systems, etc. I would bet gen 2 is redesigned to be lighter, and even if battery energy density changes by a margin of ten, and the weight remains the same the consumption remains the same. EVs NEED to be lighter to be efficient, it is a simple reality of electric drive and 3500 lbs is not an great weight for a car with a smaller sized pack. Weight creep, it will kill the best EV design. The Leaf 0-60 is doggy because of the weight and the need for a larger size and higher torque /lower HP motor, more like a bus or larger vehicle. This also explains the drop after the excellent low-speed acceleration, all design compromises.

I would be willing to bet most of the weight is a result of taking an existing platform with a revised body design and adding quite a bit of reinforcement as a result of the large pack hole and structure and not using existing light weight components to keep the high development cost down, still having conversion-like roots and design. A full unibody design (challenging for pack service) will shed significant weight and regardless of the weight for the "class" of vehicle, pushing or pulling 3500 lbs by electric drive is just not very efficient, this reality will not change without superconductors. I never expected the leaf to be low weight but I thought they could at least do closer to 3100-3200 without a liquid cooled pack. A Prius is a poor EV conversion candidate incidentally.

You may not "care" about the weight but if it was gone you sure may change your mind, at least many people would and I'm no efficiency freak Energy density, weight, aero, battery cost, those are the EV build challenges.

I doubt it's about gasoline or diesel's energy density as much as it's about fitting a 200hp engine when it only takes 11hp to move the car down the road. I've enjoyed energy management and efficient driving with a 105hp VW passat wagon loaded down with three 30 gallon drums and 10 cases of oil in 70mph traffic. And yes - in EVs as well (minus the barrels of oil, that is...)

I'm not suggesting that your side-step-in-three-acts is incorrect - but you seem to have missed the part where we compare the EV1 and the Leaf. Or did I miss that?

If we take a fairly well optimized EV1 at about 3000 lbs, stretch it to add a back seat, push the roof up for headroom, increase the battery box, and add the extra air bags, how much do you think it would weigh?

The Leaf isn't a Think or an Aptera (scratch that - the Aptera isn't even an Aptera at this point...) or a Smart or a Fiat 500 -- it's an all electric Prius or Gen 2 Insight that can hold 5 people. It's not going to out accelerate a Tesla Roadster, it's not going to carry very many 2x4s, it's not a 4x4. It might even slide in the snow. Sorry. Get over it. (Or not. Whatever.) Getting the weight down to a point where some might stop complaining would require carbon fibre, aluminum, and other pricey bits -- and then folks would likely say something like: "Good job on the weight, but there's no way I'm going to pay $45,000 for THAT!" :lol:

AndyH said:

I doubt it's about gasoline or diesel's energy density as much as it's about fitting a 200hp engine when it only takes 11hp to move the car down the road. I've enjoyed energy management and efficient driving with a 105hp VW passat wagon loaded down with three 30 gallon drums and 10 cases of oil in 70mph traffic. And yes - in EVs as well (minus the barrels of oil, that is...)

I'm not suggesting that your side-step-in-three-acts is incorrect - but you seem to have missed the part where we compare the EV1 and the Leaf. Or did I miss that?

If we take a fairly well optimized EV1 at about 3000 lbs, stretch it to add a back seat, push the roof up for headroom, increase the battery box, and add the extra air bags, how much do you think it would weigh?

The Leaf isn't a Think or an Aptera (scratch that - the Aptera isn't even an Aptera at this point...) or a Smart or a Fiat 500 -- it's an all electric Prius or Gen 2 Insight that can hold 5 people. It's not going to out accelerate a Tesla Roadster, it's not going to carry very many 2x4s, it's not a 4x4. It might even slide in the snow. Sorry. Get over it. (Or not. Whatever.) Getting the weight down to a point where some might stop complaining would require carbon fibre, aluminum, and other pricey bits -- and then folks would likely say something like: "Good job on the weight, but there's no way I'm going to pay $45,000 for THAT!" :lol:

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Many of the EV1 parts were quite large and new components are much better. Let's forget comparisons, bottom line is that the Leaf could easily weigh less and it will in the near future, I'll bet on that. Once people actually drive and own and EV they will get a crash course in efficiency and why lower weight is so important to all EVs. As I mentioned before it does not take exotic materials, Nissan sacrificed weight for cost as they had to because of pack cost, they had to make several compromises to get the price point for the launch. The Leaf is more traditional car than "ground up" EV. We'll all see what's under the hood and body soon and regardless I'm glad it's here period, even more so if it is by the end of the year!