DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
Oh she is VERY aware of all that. But she was still seeing very high temps BEFORE her first QC of the day. That is what started the AC venting and ice thing in the first place.
The 40KWH Battery Topic
- Thread starter LeftieBiker
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Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:
Oh she is VERY aware of all that. But she was still seeing very high temps BEFORE her first QC of the day. That is what started the AC venting and ice thing in the first place.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
SageBrush said:
Pretty much. An Apt dweller. She says there isn't even any shade. I can't imagine living in those conditions. I lived near Phoenix almost 40 years (and about 15º) ago and even the dump I lived in had covered parking.
EnigmaEV
Member
After almost 10 months and 19,000 km (12,000 mi) my SOH has dropped to 94.35%. The fall has definitely slowed with winter temperatures below freezing but still continues with a .01% drop every few days and an occasional rapid drop of .25-.5%. The fully charged capacity, according to Leaf Spy, is 96.2% SOC, 92.6% GIDS, and 35.9 kWh.
For those interested in cold weather range, I drove a 106 km (66 mi) round trip last weekend in -29C (-20F) with a 15-20 kph (9-13 mph) crosswind, an average travel speed of 80 kph (50 mph), and interior temperature set to 18C (64F). I left fully charged, interior preheated, with an initial pack temperature of 2C (36F) and returned with 2% on the dash and a pack temperature of 16C (61F). I had passed Low Battery Warning and was about 6 km (4 mi) into Very Low Battery Warning. I'm not sure how far away I was from turtle. The interesting part is LeafSpy still showed 6.4 kWh remaining. Does anyone have a good idea how accurate LeafSpy is at lower states of charge? According to the car, about half way back, it determined I wouldn't be able to make it home. According to LeafSpy I had plenty of range to get back - which I did without any problems. LeafSpy also showed that I used 29.8 kWh on the trip which was confirmed with a 30.11 kWh charge back up to full. It is disappointing the car wants me to believe I can only use 78% of the supposed 38 kWh originally available, or 83% of the currently degraded battery. A 6 kWh buffer at the bottom end seems a little excessive.
For those interested in cold weather range, I drove a 106 km (66 mi) round trip last weekend in -29C (-20F) with a 15-20 kph (9-13 mph) crosswind, an average travel speed of 80 kph (50 mph), and interior temperature set to 18C (64F). I left fully charged, interior preheated, with an initial pack temperature of 2C (36F) and returned with 2% on the dash and a pack temperature of 16C (61F). I had passed Low Battery Warning and was about 6 km (4 mi) into Very Low Battery Warning. I'm not sure how far away I was from turtle. The interesting part is LeafSpy still showed 6.4 kWh remaining. Does anyone have a good idea how accurate LeafSpy is at lower states of charge? According to the car, about half way back, it determined I wouldn't be able to make it home. According to LeafSpy I had plenty of range to get back - which I did without any problems. LeafSpy also showed that I used 29.8 kWh on the trip which was confirmed with a 30.11 kWh charge back up to full. It is disappointing the car wants me to believe I can only use 78% of the supposed 38 kWh originally available, or 83% of the currently degraded battery. A 6 kWh buffer at the bottom end seems a little excessive.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
EnigmaEV said:
how much of that 6.4 kwh left is usable depends on pack balance. You are likely gonna die at .2-.4 kwh left but could be as high as .6 kwh or more. I took mine to Turtle and 2.9% SOC (per LEAF Spy) with .6 kwh left. I might have been able to go another ½ mile at very slow speeds but wasn't interested.
As far as pack balance? I have done relatively few full charges so guessing my pack balance was fair at best. My pack voltage was 305 Volts so some life left but delta was 57 mV which I thought was pretty good considering how low I was.
EnigmaEV said:
That range makes sense, as it's almost exactly double the range of a 24kwh Leaf in similar conditions, with a similar SOH. The 40kwh Leaf has slightly less than double the capacity, but also higher efficiency on the highway because of better aerodynamics.
cwerdna
Well-known member
I wouldn't take that as gospel. It's derived from the default of 77.5 watt-hours per gid * # of gids. You can make that kWh value go up/down by adjusting that constant via settings.EnigmaEV said:
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=510091#p510091 is what wrote about gids and other values like SOH, Hx, and Ahr. Also see Turbo3's reply at March 15, 2018 at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=14285&hilit=gid&start=1770. Sorry, I can't point to a direct post due to some site problem. The links end up jumping you to the wrong post.
Turbo3 said:
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
cwerdna said:
All the above basically illustrates how important it is to check your stats regularly and to get a baseline when you first receive the car. The default will work for 99% of everyone. Back in the day, the default was 80 wh/ GID (From GIDmeter) which was immediately discounted when LEAF Spy came out due to unrealistic full charge values.
There is nothing in your post that would suggest that your LEAF Spy settings are wrong.
Said it a million times and its well worth repeating; imm, the #1 values of LEAF Spy is actually knowing where your last mile is.
EnigmaEV
Member
DaveinOlyWA said:
Thanks for the extra insight. I didn't think to look at the voltage details during the drive. Here are some additional stats from the log file:
-Start of drive: 449 Gids, 399.65 V, 6 mV delta
-End of drive: 82 Gids, 335 V, 22 mV delta
-After recharge: 456 Gids, 402.43 V, 6 mV delta
The highest delta was 110 mV while travelling at 100 kph (62 mph) near the end of the trip. Shortly after slowing down to 60 kph (38 mph) the pack quickly balanced back down to 22 mV.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
EnigmaEV said:
Yeah, not sure I would consider any reading of the delta while moving. I think there is a large disconnect between reality and the sluggish actions of the LEAF BMS/LBC... just another chink in the amor, I think.
HerdingElectrons
Well-known member
Kieran973 said:
I bought my '18 SL in Sept & have a bit over 6K miles on it. Zero QC's & 99% of charging is done at home L2 using the OEM EVSE. Anecdotally I typically charge in 2 hour blocks. From 8pm-10pm & or only from 3am-5am depending on SOC & what my rage needs are the next day. I charge the car daily except for rare low use cases.
I typically charge the car to 70-90% & 100% charge it every 1-2 weeks. I rarely get below 20% dash indicated but have been as low as 4% but have never seen any of the LBW or more dire warnings yet.
The car is garaged but is not climate controlled although the back of the fireplace is in the garage which does slightly passively heat the garage in the winter although the F/P insert keeps most of the heat in the home compared to a traditional F/P.
LS shows 96.66% SOH as of this morning compared to 99.2% a week into initial purchase so a 2.54% degradation so far over 4 months.
So after reading 16 pages of this topic, I'm a little disappointed to see the battery degradation happening to these newer 40 kWh batteries. I was hoping for some kind of improvement over the years. Having just got a 2019 Leaf S, I drove a 2016 e-Golf SE for 3 years. I charged it from 5% to 100% every day, and didn't think twice about it. when I turned it in after the 3 year lease, I didn't notice any range drop from when it was new.
Now that i purchased a Leaf instead of leasing, I have more incentive to research how to prolong the battery life. From what I've read about lithium ion batteries, it looks like the ideal long term storage state of the battery is 30% SOC.
http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki/battery-capacity-loss/
The 30% number is corroborated by the Nissan inventory storage document I received when I bought the car that also recommends the dealers store the battery at 30% if storing a new 2019 Leaf for longer than 90 days.
So now I have a choice to either baby the battery, and charge it from let's say 30% to 70%, or just drive the car and charge to 100% without thinking about it, and get a new battery under warranty if it drops to 8 bars within 8 years/100k miles. I mean, if I do see some significant degradation, there's almost an economic incentive to drive and recharge the battery aggressively just to get a new one within 8 years. Does anyone know the approximate range that would be left at 8 bars for the 40kWh battery? I'm guessing it's 66% or about 100 miles, but I've seen other posts where people have lots of bars, but not much range. I'm in the So Cal area and the car will be garaged at home and work. Besides this new battery concern, I really do like the car and am enjoying it thoroughly.
Now that i purchased a Leaf instead of leasing, I have more incentive to research how to prolong the battery life. From what I've read about lithium ion batteries, it looks like the ideal long term storage state of the battery is 30% SOC.
http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/wiki/battery-capacity-loss/
The 30% number is corroborated by the Nissan inventory storage document I received when I bought the car that also recommends the dealers store the battery at 30% if storing a new 2019 Leaf for longer than 90 days.
So now I have a choice to either baby the battery, and charge it from let's say 30% to 70%, or just drive the car and charge to 100% without thinking about it, and get a new battery under warranty if it drops to 8 bars within 8 years/100k miles. I mean, if I do see some significant degradation, there's almost an economic incentive to drive and recharge the battery aggressively just to get a new one within 8 years. Does anyone know the approximate range that would be left at 8 bars for the 40kWh battery? I'm guessing it's 66% or about 100 miles, but I've seen other posts where people have lots of bars, but not much range. I'm in the So Cal area and the car will be garaged at home and work. Besides this new battery concern, I really do like the car and am enjoying it thoroughly.
That's what's called a "false dichotomy."
The middle approach is what I'm taking: keep it charged between 50% and 80% unless you need 100%. Don't charge when the pack is hot, and especially don't QC when the pack is hot. Otherwise don't agonize over it. Or, if you are fine with reduced range, drive it like you stole it.A safe range guess for a 40kwh pack just about to qualify for warranty replacement would be 80 miles with climate control use.
WetEV
Well-known member
sptleaf said:
How much do you drive per day?
Charge to 100% right before departure. Usually simple.
Slightly more complex would be to find out your average use, how long you need to charge to replace that use, and set up a timer to just replace average use. If you drive more, override the timer. If you drive less, skip plugging in.
My timer is set to charge for an hour, which replaces about 30% of the charge. I plug in when at or below 50%. So most of the time I'm between 40% and 80%. About every three days I plug in.
As for how long the battery will last, my guess is that the hottest places will see battery replacements, and the rest of the country will not. So use the scaling in the wiki and the closest climate to the climate where you live for an estimate. So Cal covers a lot of ground, from blazing hot to coastal cool.
"Phoenix, AZ " ,1.81
"Riverside, CA " ,1.09
If batteries just hit replacement at 8 years in Phoenix, then would hit replacement level in Riverside at 8* (1.81/1.09) or 13 years. If much worse, Nissan will bleed money on warranty replacements. So I doubt you have a chance of a battery replacement in 8 years. Unless So Cal means Palm Springs, CA.
Thanks for the replies. I'm in San Diego which is pretty moderate. I drive about 60 miles 3 days a week, and maybe 5-10 the other 4 days. So, I could easily set the timer to get back to a 70% charge and stay comfortably in the 30% -70% "ideal" range for 3 days a week. Then I could also leave the battery near the ideal 30% storage rate for 4 days a week, assuming I don't have any longer trips planned.
But, part of me is why bother, why should I need to manage this at all. Let's say I do all this and the battery lasts for 8.5 years then loses 4 bars. I could have just driven the car without a thought and charge to 100% nightly and maybe I get a new battery out of it after 6-7 years and come out ahead. I guess monitoring the rate of degradation would be the key to this bet, but from what I've seen from other people losing high percentage of SOC's after one year in hot areas, i'd say for them it makes more sense to just charge away and plan for the new battery within 8 years. In any case, the one redeeming grace is that even at 66% of my initial range, I could still get to work and back. Right now, I'm leaning towards "drive it like you stole it." Haha.
But, part of me is why bother, why should I need to manage this at all. Let's say I do all this and the battery lasts for 8.5 years then loses 4 bars. I could have just driven the car without a thought and charge to 100% nightly and maybe I get a new battery out of it after 6-7 years and come out ahead. I guess monitoring the rate of degradation would be the key to this bet, but from what I've seen from other people losing high percentage of SOC's after one year in hot areas, i'd say for them it makes more sense to just charge away and plan for the new battery within 8 years. In any case, the one redeeming grace is that even at 66% of my initial range, I could still get to work and back. Right now, I'm leaning towards "drive it like you stole it." Haha.
WetEV
Well-known member
sptleaf said:
Choices are:
1) Take care of the battery.
Bad outcome would be the battery lasts for 8.5 years then loses 4 bars, unlikely unless you live in hot climate and you don't.
Good outcome would be to last far longer than the warranty.
2) "Drive it like you stole it".
Bad outcome would be the battery lasts for 8.5 years then loses 4 bars.
Good outcome would be warranty replacement at 7 years 11 months and 27 days, unlikely unless you live in hot climate and you don't.
Of course, you might enjoy option 2 more. Money and battery life isn't everything!
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
Figure out your needs (which seem modest) which has
distance you drive
considering weather, terrain
distance you "might" drive
then charge to the level that covers that.
As far as long term storage, I read "somewhere" that it should be 35% but that was years ago but I doubt much has changed.
I did a write up on my One year review and it delves into the battery situation (which I don't think is the main problem) including the BMS/LBC (which I DO think is the problem) and projected degradation.
https://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2019/03/happy-birthday-leaf.html
distance you drive
considering weather, terrain
distance you "might" drive
then charge to the level that covers that.
As far as long term storage, I read "somewhere" that it should be 35% but that was years ago but I doubt much has changed.
I did a write up on my One year review and it delves into the battery situation (which I don't think is the main problem) including the BMS/LBC (which I DO think is the problem) and projected degradation.
https://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2019/03/happy-birthday-leaf.html
Thanks for all the tips guys. Sounds like a good plan just charge what I need and stay within 30-75% SOC most of the time since it fits my drive profile. I take care of my stuff anyways so that’s what I’ll do. I was mainly playing devil's advocate in case someone saw a lot of degradation then it makes sense to try for the new battery.
Anyways here’s some data points from my new 2019 Leaf S purchase (no DC fast charger).
Attached are a battery inspection which has a nice full gauge and a reading of 552 CCA’s. I do not know that that is. The other is the storage document instructions for the dealers on how to store the Leaf at 30%.
Anyways here’s some data points from my new 2019 Leaf S purchase (no DC fast charger).
Attached are a battery inspection which has a nice full gauge and a reading of 552 CCA’s. I do not know that that is. The other is the storage document instructions for the dealers on how to store the Leaf at 30%.
jmurtagh13
Active member
Adding some data to this thread. I picked up my 2018 Leaf March 10th 2018 so it's 1 year old.
Mileage: 8,916
AHr 106.37
SOH 92.14%
Hx 112.23%
I live in Atlanta, No QCs, I charge early morning keeping the charge level between 30 - 75%. charge to 100% about once a month.
Max Battery temperature 97F, max temperature charging 85F. During the week the car is in a parking garage. I really try hard to baby this battery, yet I've lost almost 8% or at least that's what LeafSpy and or the BMS says.
What I'm seeing from reading these 16 pages, is it seems like battery degradation is tied more to time than anything else. Yes there is some variation due to the other factors. But it seems like no mater what, your're going to lose at least 6% in the first year. I have not seen a lot of data from 1 year old 40KWA leafs but the ones I have seen I believe have lost at least 6%.
The next year will be interesting to see if this trend continues, or if we determine that we're really not losing that much. As it's been said before the BMS may be the issue.
Mileage: 8,916
AHr 106.37
SOH 92.14%
Hx 112.23%
I live in Atlanta, No QCs, I charge early morning keeping the charge level between 30 - 75%. charge to 100% about once a month.
Max Battery temperature 97F, max temperature charging 85F. During the week the car is in a parking garage. I really try hard to baby this battery, yet I've lost almost 8% or at least that's what LeafSpy and or the BMS says.
What I'm seeing from reading these 16 pages, is it seems like battery degradation is tied more to time than anything else. Yes there is some variation due to the other factors. But it seems like no mater what, your're going to lose at least 6% in the first year. I have not seen a lot of data from 1 year old 40KWA leafs but the ones I have seen I believe have lost at least 6%.
The next year will be interesting to see if this trend continues, or if we determine that we're really not losing that much. As it's been said before the BMS may be the issue.
I had originally named the 30kwh pack the "Lettuce Pack" because it was apparently "wilting" so fast. Maybe the 40kwh pack should get that unfortunate moniker...if not, I shall dub it "Canary II."
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