91040
Posts: 1000
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:36 pm
Delivery Date: 06 May 2011
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: 2019 Leaf 40 kWh battery heating test.

Wed May 22, 2019 2:11 pm

I have used this “entertainment” app since it was made available. It has allowed me to fully utilize the traction battery’s capacity, making the decisions regarding speed, route and charging be based on data rather than guesswork.

It also provides a consistent way to compare traction batteries, catch those who have reset the capacity bars and evalute the condition of used cars.

Its ability to view and clear DTCs allows for simple fixes and reduces reliance on blindly accepting the evaluation of a problem by a repair facility.

Rather than entertaining, I would label it invaluable.

Disclaimer: As far as I know, I have never met Turbo3 nor is he a friend.

OrientExpress wrote:There is no visibility as to how LEAF Spy is interpreting, and in most cases what the CANBUS data it is reading and presenting actually means (sure the setting for doors and TPMS are easy to figure out). Lots of conjecture and made up units of measure, but with no certification, its got no value other than as an entertainment app.

I'm friends with the author of LEAF Spy, and he is great guy, but even he will admit the many of the readings presented are conjecture. In the end it's a hobbyist app for entertainment and shouldn't be taken too seriously.
1st Capacity Bar loss 30k mi 16.25mo
2nd- 49k mi 25.5mo 51.5Ah
3rd- 73k mi 36.5mo 46.9Ah
4th- 86.5k mi 43mo 42.61Ah
5th- 101k mi 50.5mo 38.38Ah, end 36.13Ah
New Battery 9/28/15 104k mi 66.14Ah
1st- 160.5k mi 34mo 54.02Ah

LeftieBiker
Moderator
Posts: 11967
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Wed May 22, 2019 2:55 pm

OrientExpress wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote: First, you seem to have been trying to use "test" results from very mild weather to extrapolate to hot weather. Second, when the Leaf temp "gauge" is in the red it is definitely cause for worry. I don't know why you think otherwise, but please keep in mind that the Red zone of ANY temp gauge should be considered a definite warning. Manufacturers don't use red because they think it's pretty.


No, I am using the tests I conducted to extrapolate with different weather conditions simply because others have done essentially the same test in much hotter conditions in Arizona and come up with similar results. With the current LEAF batteries, elevated cold and hot environments are not as big of a factor as they were with pervious generations of the battery.

Now I do have expressed concerns with the HMI of the LEAF temperature gauge to those responsible for it, because there are lots of folks that come to the same conclusion that you have, based on their historical perceptions. Nissan's subtle approach using long and short blue and red marks to indicate operating range does not click with many of those that use preconceived notions and fail to RTFM. The Goldilocks area is between the short blue line and the short red line.

The other issue I've seen is that many people that come to your conclusion about what the gauge is describing is that they may not be familiar with a car that has automatic systems that protect the vehicle if there is a critical overheat (and underheat) situation by restricting the power available to the car until it is back within an acceptable operational temperature. Just about every BEV has a "turtle-lite" mode like the LEAFs that is designed to keep the vehicle's battery from being damaged. The car takes care of the situation that you are worried about so you don't have to.

As described in the owners manual the area between the short and long red mark is the warning area you are thinking of, and beyond the long red bar is where the automatic battery protection systems activate. The same goes for the short and long blue marks. In all the LEAFs I have driven over the years and all of the purposeful abuse I have laid on them, I have never had a situation where the temperature bar has gone beyond the first short red mark. Of course it does happen, and if one does get into that situation, the solution is to either drive slower, or stop for a while and let the battery cool a bit. I've found that the current battery can recover from being at the short red bar in 15-30 minutes by simply stopping or driving slower.

So again for the umpteenth time here is the section that describes that gauge. The key takeaway is that if the white bar on the gauge is between the short blue and short red mark, regardless where on the gauge it is, that is the normal operating temperature.

Image



The sad thing here is that what you posted from the manual confirms what I wrote, not what you wrote (I added emphasis to help you see that). Thanks for posting it. No thanks for implying that I know less than you about cars - that one won't fly with anybody here, as you have demonstrated a little too much ignorance of basic terminology and principles over the last year or so.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

SageBrush
Posts: 4039
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2019 Leaf 40 kWh battery heating test.

Wed May 22, 2019 2:56 pm

91040 wrote:I have used this “entertainment” app since it was made available. It has allowed me to fully utilize the traction battery’s capacity, making the decisions regarding speed, route and charging be based on data rather than guesswork.

It also provides a consistent way to compare traction batteries, catch those who have reset the capacity bars and evalute the condition of used cars.

Its ability to view and clear DTCs allows for simple fixes and reduces reliance on blindly accepting the evaluation of a problem by a repair facility.

Rather than entertaining, I would label it invaluable.

OE is a shill. His methods are similar to those used by tobacco lobbyists from a generation ago and AGW denialists today. I have to admit that he is competent at what he does.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

User avatar
OrientExpress
Forum Supporter
Posts: 1466
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: 2019 Leaf 40 kWh battery heating test.

Wed May 22, 2019 3:45 pm

SageBrush wrote:OE is a shill. His methods are similar to those used by tobacco lobbyists from a generation ago and AGW denialists today. I have to admit that he is competent at what he does.


I hear that a lot from the old backwoods hillbillies. They are a constant source of comic relief.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

lorenfb
Posts: 2189
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Wed May 22, 2019 7:20 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
OrientExpress wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote: First, you seem to have been trying to use "test" results from very mild weather to extrapolate to hot weather. Second, when the Leaf temp "gauge" is in the red it is definitely cause for worry. I don't know why you think otherwise, but please keep in mind that the Red zone of ANY temp gauge should be considered a definite warning. Manufacturers don't use red because they think it's pretty.


No, I am using the tests I conducted to extrapolate with different weather conditions simply because others have done essentially the same test in much hotter conditions in Arizona and come up with similar results. With the current LEAF batteries, elevated cold and hot environments are not as big of a factor as they were with pervious generations of the battery.

Now I do have expressed concerns with the HMI of the LEAF temperature gauge to those responsible for it, because there are lots of folks that come to the same conclusion that you have, based on their historical perceptions. Nissan's subtle approach using long and short blue and red marks to indicate operating range does not click with many of those that use preconceived notions and fail to RTFM. The Goldilocks area is between the short blue line and the short red line.

The other issue I've seen is that many people that come to your conclusion about what the gauge is describing is that they may not be familiar with a car that has automatic systems that protect the vehicle if there is a critical overheat (and underheat) situation by restricting the power available to the car until it is back within an acceptable operational temperature. Just about every BEV has a "turtle-lite" mode like the LEAFs that is designed to keep the vehicle's battery from being damaged. The car takes care of the situation that you are worried about so you don't have to.

As described in the owners manual the area between the short and long red mark is the warning area you are thinking of, and beyond the long red bar is where the automatic battery protection systems activate. The same goes for the short and long blue marks. In all the LEAFs I have driven over the years and all of the purposeful abuse I have laid on them, I have never had a situation where the temperature bar has gone beyond the first short red mark. Of course it does happen, and if one does get into that situation, the solution is to either drive slower, or stop for a while and let the battery cool a bit. I've found that the current battery can recover from being at the short red bar in 15-30 minutes by simply stopping or driving slower.

So again for the umpteenth time here is the section that describes that gauge. The key takeaway is that if the white bar on the gauge is between the short blue and short red mark, regardless where on the gauge it is, that is the normal operating temperature.

Image



The sad thing here is that what you posted from the manual confirms what I wrote, not what you wrote (I added emphasis to help you see that). Thanks for posting it. No thanks for implying that I know less than you about cars - that one won't fly with anybody here, as you have demonstrated a little too much ignorance of basic terminology and principles over the last year or so.


As I posted previously, my first 2019 40 kWh QC resulted in the battery temp reaching 100F (slightly to the right of the mid point ~ 80F,
per LeafSpy) after 30 minutes, where the average charging power was about 32-33 kW. The battery temp was about the same as
ambient (72F) at the start of charging. Given past Leaf data presented on MNL, my view is that Leaf battery temps that approach 100F
or more become problematic, i.e. enhance battery degradation, whether the result of charging or high speed driving. That issue
compounds the high ambient temp that some 2019 40 kWh Leafs may be subjected to during the summer months. So my driving plans
are to only QC once per day and only when absolutely necessary. The present range of the 2019 Leaf based on about 1500 miles
of driving, should be more than adequate to support my business needs without QCing, which was necessitated with the 24 kWh
Leaf.
#1 Leaf SL MY 9/13: 74K miles, 48 Ahrs, 5.2 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 - 100% > 1000, temp < 95F (35C), min discharge (DOD) > 20 Ahrs
#2 Leaf SL MY 12/18: 115 Ahrs, 5.5 miles/kWh (average), Hx=98, SOH=99, DOD > 25%, temp < 105F

GerryAZ
Gold Member
Posts: 2130
Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 6:47 pm
Delivery Date: 12 Jun 2011
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2019 Leaf 40 kWh battery heating test.

Wed May 22, 2019 9:04 pm

OrientExpress wrote:
SageBrush wrote:Don't you think it is time to get LeafSpy ? You have been a noob long enough.
Or does it interfere with your shill duties ?


Nope, Until LEAF Spy can be certified by Nissan as being a credible measurement tool, it serves no purpose other than to entertain.

LEAF Spy is a perfect toy for experts such as yourself however.


Orient Express,

Since you seem to be a Nissan expert, perhaps you can tell me how and where I can purchase a device certified by Nissan that lets me read accurate data from the car's various modules (especially data related to the traction battery) and perform maintenance/repair functions. As far as I know, Consult 3+ is the only device that might be certified by Nissan and has the capability I want. Unfortunately, I have been unable to find out how/where I can purchase it as a private individual so that leaves me with Leaf Spy Pro as the best alternative that I can actually obtain. I want to send a really big THANK YOU to Jim for creating the application!
Gerry
Silver LEAF 2011 SL rear ended (totaled) by in-attentive driver 1/4/2015 at 50,422 miles
Silver LEAF 2015 SL purchased 2/7/2015

cwerdna
Posts: 9253
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: 2019 Leaf 40 kWh battery heating test.

Wed May 22, 2019 10:53 pm

GerryAZ wrote:As far as I know, Consult 3+ is the only device that might be certified by Nissan and has the capability I want. Unfortunately, I have been unable to find out how/where I can purchase it as a private individual so that leaves me with Leaf Spy Pro as the best alternative that I can actually obtain. I want to send a really big THANK YOU to Jim for creating the application!

https://www.nissan-techinfo.com/ecm07.aspx leads to https://www.nissantechmate.com/. It's not surprisingly, very expensive. There's also the subscription fees: https://www.nissan-techinfo.com/dept.aspx?dept_id=25.

Also, ditto on the thank you.

'19 Bolt Premier
'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)

Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13837
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Thu May 23, 2019 8:17 am

The first quick charge of the morning ran at 35kW to about 65% capacity and then throttled down to 28kW until it finished at 92%, 45 minutes from start. An observation is that I have never had any LEAF, of any year, charge at more than 35kW at any of our local 50kW chargers.


Other than your 2018, you had NO way of seeing the charging rates so this statement is half true by default. Your statement on Facebook is you only use the Nissan instrumentation so you are either living selectively or somehow missed the thousands of posts showing charging speeds at 45 KW or more. I can show you LEAF Spy, Nissan Dash or Public Charging company records ALL verifying the same charging speed. Which do you prefer?

For this third fast charge, the car started at 18kW and stayed there until the end of the charge session 45 minutes later. 18kW seems to be the floor for the '19 40kWh LEAF.


You didn't top out on the temperature gauge so your "floor" comment is complete conjecture. At the upper range of that temperature gauge reading, your charge rate would actually only be 16.6 KW.

In comparison to my 2018 40kWh car, on the third Quick Charge it would have been charging at about 12 kW and lower, so clearly there are some changes in the charging profile on the 2019 car.


Interesting comment from someone who claimed RapidGate was a non issue. Since you still have that 2018, it should be easy to post a picture of this 12 KW starting charge rate.

I will check back here periodically for that picture.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 15,000 miles, 478 GIDs, 37.0 kwh 109.81 Ahr , SOH 94.61, Hx 120.15
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
OrientExpress
Forum Supporter
Posts: 1466
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:22 pm
Delivery Date: 10 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2331
Location: San Jose, Ca

Re: 2019 Leaf battery overheating

Thu May 23, 2019 9:15 am

Dave, no offense, but I’d ask you to reread my experience notes.
2018 LEAF SL
Gun Metalic
Delivery April 10 2018

Prior LEAF:
2014 LEAF SV
Ocean Blue
Delivery May 23 2014
50,000+ miles - all 12 bars - Same range as new - No warranty issues ever!

WetEV
Posts: 2860
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: 2019 Leaf 40 kWh battery heating test.

Thu May 23, 2019 9:18 am

OrientExpress wrote:Nope, Until LEAF Spy can be certified by Nissan as being a credible measurement tool, it serves no purpose other than to entertain.


I can see this attitude from a journalist. LeafSpy is not a fully creditable source of information.

Yet LeafSpy is useful. And can be verified as mostly correct by use.

Distance to empty, for example.

I'd like to have the dashboard displays from Nissan give me distance to empty (aka GOM) that I could trust. However, I know that that requires more information that the car has. Picture this: I'm sitting in my garage, and I'm getting ready to go somewhere.

Does the car know where? It might guess, based on day of week and time of day, that I'm about ready to do my usual commute. But that's a guess. And other times it probably can't even guess. Unless it can hack DuckDuckGo.

Does the car know what the weather is outside the garage. I do, but the car doesn't unless it receives weather reports. Does the car know that the roads I'm about to drive on have 10 cm of snow? Or not? Have they been plowed? Or not? Oh and the temperature is 18 F and the wind is blowing out of the south.

Does the car know if I'm in a hurry, or if I'm going to drive to stretch range? I don't see how.

I know more than the car, and can guess and then enter a miles per kWh into LeafSpy, and LeafSpy can project a range to Low Battery Warning. I use this to manage charging, driving and sometime route to arrive home above or just below LBW. Why? I want margin. Keeps me from worrying. The LEAF's gauges don't give me the ability. I can project a more accurate miles per kWh than the car car, mostly because I know more than the car does.

I'd like the same functionality from the car, of course. Let me adjust the (km/m)/kWhr used by the range estimator based on what I know. Let me set a different end point, perhaps 50% plus margin on an out and back run, or LBW, or VLBW, or something else.

The battery temperature bar is a joke. Please pass on the feedback that a real temperature gauge reading in F/C is useful.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

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