Highway Cruiser or Not?

Sure this is a car mostly for driving around town, but will you want to take it on a road trip now and then? It looks smooth, comfortable, and fun to drive. They are building the charging infrastructure to support highway driving, like this project allowing you to drive from Knoxville to Nashville with no range anxiety:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1196

People are talking about charging stations from San Diego to Phoenix, and along the whole length of California. Nissan says:

Q: What do I do if I want to go farther than 100 miles in one trip?
A: The Nissan LEAF’s nav system will be able to show you charging locations along your route.

Click to expand...

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/faq/top/charging#/leaf-electric-car/faq/top/charging

Yet Nissan also says:

excessive capacity reduction could be attributed to: ... Repeatedly charging your LEAF by quick charge several times a day

Click to expand...

http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-elect...dex#/leaf-electric-car/range-disclaimer/index

So how should you make that 180 mile trip from Knoxville to Nashville? Start with a full charge (100 miles) and get one L3 charge (+80 miles) and you can just make it. Stay overnight and get a full L2 charge and drive home the next day. But what if you want to come home the same day? That's three more L3 charges.

Mark Perry of Nissan is cited stating that normally the batteries will retain 70 to 80% of capacity after 10 years, but "Frequent fast chargers--more than once or twice per day--can expect performance on the lower end of that range." The CNET author asserts that the battery electronics will slow the rate of charge when necessary to prevent damage.

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20011094-48.html

So probably an occasional weekend trip won't do much harm. But how many road trips is too many? Any ideas?

walterbays said:

So probably an occasional weekend trip won't do much harm. But how many road trips is too many? Any ideas?

Click to expand...

My suggestion would be to try not to make a gen 1 EV into your average ICE vehicle. EV's aren't ready for that, and trying to push the envelope too hard will result in unstisfactory performance and unhappiness with an otherwise great car.

We all need to keep our expectations in check regarding the capabilities of the Leaf. This is the first mass-produced EV, and Nissan (and the EV community) are going to learn a LOT about what they can and cannot do. Come back when we're on Gen 2 or 3 and I'll bet your trip to Nashville will be more than doable.....on zero gas!

I certainly have no more knowledge about the question as you guys - likely even less. However - Nissan doesn't say "don't ever take a trip where you have to quick charge a few times in a day" they do however recommend not "repeatedly quick charging multiple times a day". In my mind at least - there is a big difference between the two. So if you live in Knoxville and want to drive to a concert at the Grand Ole Opry - I don't see any reason not to take the Leaf. Or if you live in Nashville and want to head to the Sundowner festival - why not? You aren't going to do this every day - and the trip between Nashville and Knoxville and back would be two or three charges - and if you spend any time in the destination city you might be able to recharge - at least partially - there with L2 and do the round trip on just 2 QC's.

Of course - I'll be reading here regularly to see all of the people who study this stuff post results of all of their driving and testing with good solid actual real life data to be sure they aren't warning off this type of behavior! But yes - if the charging infrastructure is in place - I'd be happy to take a couple of hundred mile drive in the Leaf until someone shows that I might only be able to do that once.

I was planning on using my LEAF as a Primary car, so I would take those occasional trips to CA if need be. I'm still wondering about what actually is 'fast charging'. I read that in less than 30 mins. you could have about 80%. Is THAT the fast charging that will degrade the batteries OR is it the extra minutes to take it to 90% that really does the damage? I'm hoping a quick 15-20 min. fast charge isn't going to do any damage if I have to do that several times on a long trip, otherwise, what's the point of the DC port if you can only use it once a day?

The best "accessory" Nissan is offering for the Leaf may well be the ICE car they only want to give you four grand for on a trade.

leaffan said:

what's the point of the DC port if you can only use it once a day?

Click to expand...

The CNET article would be most reassuring, if only Nissan would say it officially. Fast charging several times on the occasional weekend trip won't significantly degrade your battery capacity, and the charging system won't let you damage the battery no matter what you do. (The third fast charge of the day might be a little bit slower.)

I would like for them to give a little more guidance, even if they don't yet have the accumulation of real world statistics that would let them quantify it accurately. E.g., one long trip a month is definitely not a problem, but if you need to take two long trips a week then you need an ICE.

This is just being overblown.

Perry has said if you use L3 a lot - in 8 years the degradation will be some 10%. So Instead of 70 mile range it will be 60 miles.

I'd say, big deal. If I've used a lot less of oil, it is worth it.

Anyway, the batteries in 8 years time will be cheaper and better. So you'd be glad - you have to get a new one :lol:

This is why I will skip the L3. Most likely on a long trip you would need to L3 every hour so every hour drive time becomes 1.5 to 2 hours.
So instead of 4 hours to Las Vegas it would take 6 to 8 hours? no thanks. With 250 mile range and one stop that may work but not as is for me.
The VOLT does have its place as a second car.

smkettner said:

This is why I will skip the L3. Most likely on a long trip you would need to L3 every hour so every hour drive time becomes 1.5 to 2 hours.
So instead of 4 hours to Las Vegas it would take 6 to 8 hours? no thanks. With 250 mile range and one stop that may work but not as is for me.
The VOLT does have its place as a second car.

Click to expand...

Seriously, the Volt? Skip the Volt and get a Gen 2 Prius(2004-2009) and add a plug-in kit. Volt looks like a joke IMHO. Plus it's a GM(government motors)!!
40 mile max range in EV, the Volt mileage will most likely diminish to 10-15 miles EV mode on the highway with AC going. Then the 1.4 liter 4 cylinder premium gasoline generator kicks in to give estimated 32-38 mpg on a 300 mile trip. Seems like an over-price road/gas hog to me.

gasmiser1 said:

smkettner said:

This is why I will skip the L3. Most likely on a long trip you would need to L3 every hour so every hour drive time becomes 1.5 to 2 hours.
So instead of 4 hours to Las Vegas it would take 6 to 8 hours? no thanks. With 250 mile range and one stop that may work but not as is for me.
The VOLT does have its place as a second car.

Click to expand...

Seriously, the Volt? Skip the Volt and get a Gen 2 Prius(2004-2009) and add a plug-in kit. Volt looks like a joke IMHO. Plus it's a GM(government motors)!!
40 mile max range in EV, the Volt will diminish to 10-15 miles EV mode on the highway and less with AC going. Then the 1.4 liter 4 cylinder premium gasoline generator kicks in to give estimated 32-38 mpg on a 300 mile trip. Seems like an over-price road/gas hog to me.

Click to expand...

I have no problem with GM because we bailed them out. It saved a lot of jobs and soon we'll be getting most of our money back in the IPO.

I have a problem with GM and I'll never be getting a Volt because of what they did to the EV1.

Oh I am not getting a Volt, especially at the initial price level.
Just saying it has its place. Our Subaru or F150 will do fine on longer trips and I will skip the LEAF L3.

gasmiser1 said:

Seriously, the Volt? Skip the Volt and get a Gen 2 Prius(2004-2009) and add a plug-in kit. Volt looks like a joke IMHO. Plus it's a GM(government motors)!!
40 mile max range in EV, the Volt will diminish to 10-15 miles EV mode on the highway and less with AC going. Then the 1.4 liter 4 cylinder premium gasoline generator kicks in to give estimated 32-38 mpg on a 300 mile trip. Seems like an over-price road/gas hog to me.

Click to expand...

This is just FUD.

You can't compare some aftermarket hack to a properly designed car. Yes Volt is expensive and over-engineered. But the lease price isn't too bad. Does the plug-in kit get you 8 year battery warranty ?

My opinion about the Volt isn't meant to create hostility. As for aftermarket plug-in kits: there are many well engineered units available now. Even Hybrid garages are installing them (www.lusciousgarage.com in SF, CA.)

The videos I've seen about the Leaf seem to indicate the car had nice ride comfort. I think the Leaf will be a game changer and an eye opener for other car manufacturers. It won't be the perfect car for everyone's needs (need a hybrid or ice for long trips). However, for me it will be my first EV and I cannot wait to pass up gas stations, except to maybe top off my tires. With the L3 option, we'll be able to take the occasional trip to Sacramento (110 miles each way) by filling up in Vacaville's L3 stations.

In any charging scenario, thermal control is the biggest factor in maintaining longevity. Nissan disclaimer is simply a legal move because fast charging does enable a huge potential for customer abuse.

I b willing to bet that real life says i can charge to 70-80% and let it sit a bit and drive and do this all day in mild weather with no long term issues related to degraded range

DaveinOlyWA said:

In any charging scenario, thermal control is the biggest factor in maintaining longevity. Nissan disclaimer is simply a legal move because fast charging does enable a huge potential for customer abuse.

I b willing to bet that real life says i can charge to 70-80% and let it sit a bit and drive and do this all day in mild weather with no long term issues related to degraded range

Click to expand...

I think Dave's got it: for the least amount of risk, do your long drives/fast charges on a mild day so that there's minimal A/C or heat use, plus the battery will be able to passively cool better. Sounds like some thermal management logic is built into the L3 charging process, but it is probably the case that if you were to drive the Leaf constantly on the freeway, L3 charging all the way, the battery would never really have a chance to cool down so your charging would either be slower or more damaging to the battery.

The battery management issues present a rather steep learning curve for non-EV folks so instead of spelling out in some disclaimer that the Leaf is not good for extended freeway runs because of the time it would take to charge, the heat build-up issue, the shorter range per charge, etc., perhaps Nissan decided it would be simpler to say "we don't recommend it" so as not to give people the wrong impression.

evnow said:

This is just FUD.

You can't compare some aftermarket hack to a properly designed car. Yes Volt is expensive and over-engineered. But the lease price isn't too bad. Does the plug-in kit get you 8 year battery warranty ?

Click to expand...

You can if the 'aftermarket hack' provides a capability not available in (or not implemented as well in) a 'properly' designed car.

Warranty is just an insurance policy - which if all do their parts correctly should never need to be used. There are other ways to provide a warranty should peace of mind be more important that actual function.

Point to the FUD again?

There is a battery temperature gauge on the left side of the dash. That will help with these kinds of "cooling off" decisions we might want to make.

I think there are a few Good aftermarket options For the prius. But they all take more then the basic level of understanding. Most people don't want Any level of understanding. For the do it your selfer, this is a great option. But for most of the rest of us, a dealer installed option with a dealer warranty that's probally the comfort level we seek.

Speaking of the prius; this is a perfect example of what proper battery management can do for longevity.

When the prius What's first introduced with its ickel metal hydride batteries, the "experts" said the batteries would not last. Could not stand up To the stress of all that charging. Toyota basically Introduce the concept Of maintaining "middle charge".

This accomplished Several things. It completely eliminated Overcharging that results From the chemical and physical changes That occur at various temperature ranges.
1 of the biggest reasons Batteries have such a short Charge life Is that their capacity varies Based on the temperature. The chargers are not temperature adjusted. they are voltage adjusted. So batteries charging heat up, their parameters change, they overcharge. Each overcharge shortens their life.

When toyota program there System to never go above 80 percent, SOC They almost created a battery system That charges forever.

Many experts ate crow big time as priuses started coming in With 250,000, 300,000 miles And so on.

On the quick charge options; yes u will get the 80% percent in 20 minutes if you charge from dead witch is obviously not gonna happen. But let it charge on And will go do 100 percent With a high probability of a slight overcharge due to changing thermal conditions.

The ongoing problem We have is still Range anxiety. Which means that human nature Will. "Top it off" because that is what we are conditioned to do. That and that alone is the reason nissans lawyers put that line in 2 the disclaimer information

LEAFer said:

There is a battery temperature gauge on the left side of the dash. That will help with these kinds of "cooling off" decisions we might want to make.

Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing. The battery temp meter takes on a whole new meaning compared to the coolant temp meter we are all used to. In an ICE, coolant temp of red is bad, but that may never occur even once during a vehicle's lifetime, so consequently, people hardly ever look at it. On our Leaf, you might easily hit the red mark with one L3 charging.

Whether it's battery temp, SOC, or nearby charging stations, driving the Leaf will require the driver to think about what they're doing. Not prohibitively so, but enough to warrant weeding out completely brain-dead drivers. But similarly, plugging in your cell phone when it gets low is a 'chore' we've all adapted to easily. Plugging in your car won't be any different once you get used to the idea.

AndyH said:

Point to the FUD again?

Click to expand...

Mainly this ....

40 mile max range in EV, the Volt will diminish to 10-15 miles EV mode on the highway and less with AC going.

Click to expand...