GetOffYourGas
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:31 pm

http://standards.sae.org/wip/j2954/

It's marked WIP (Work In Progess), so it's not finalized yet. But I have no reason to believe that eventually J2954 will not be just as standard/common as J1772.
~Brian

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epirali
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Sat Aug 22, 2015 2:58 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:http://standards.sae.org/wip/j2954/

It's marked WIP (Work In Progess), so it's not finalized yet. But I have no reason to believe that eventually J2954 will not be just as standard/common as J1772.


Publishing a standard is one thing, adoption is another. Again Tesla uses no standard, and we already have two different fast charging connectors. I keep reading BMW and Audi are working on wireless charging, but no indication whether it is the SAE standard. So experience so far should be a good enough reason that it may not be adopted by all.

GRA
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Sat Aug 22, 2015 3:32 pm

At least the Hydrogen fueling standard, J2601, appears to have been adopted worldwide, without exception: http://standards.sae.org/j2601_201407/

Although I don't think having multiple standards is a show stopper (cf. CHAdeMO/CCS-1/CCS-2/Tesla /GB-T/J1772/Mennekes' Type 2), it certainly doesn't hurt to have just one, keeping cost down, utility up and eliminating public unfamiliarity once they've used it once or twice. I think wireless will require at least regional standardization (probably by continent), i.e. CCS-1 or CCS-2 .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

minispeed
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Sat Aug 22, 2015 4:01 pm

The only real advantage I see to inroad wireless charging is in trucking. If they can get it to the point where the efficiency of using an inroad system means less lost than loading up the truck with enough batteries to travel at 60mph for 10hrs which includes mountain passes then it would be a serious advantage.

Yes it would be a huge cost, but so would putting mega watts worth of batteries on every single truck in north America. It could also be a way for trucks to go hybrid, not carry any significant amount of batteries on board and when in the wireless zone use electricity and when not use ICE. If it was strategically placed, say on uphill portions only it could also allow the trucks to use a much smaller ICE and it could allow cities with smog problems to reduce the impact from trucks. However I don't see the cooperation of federal and local governments plus private trucking industry coming together to get this into the road fast enough to beat out any other technology that would enable trucks to go zero emissions though. I think lighter faster charging cheaper batteries or hydrogen will become a trucking standard way before we can blanket North America with these roads.
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epirali
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:47 am

GRA wrote:Although I don't think having multiple standards is a show stopper (cf. CHAdeMO/CCS-1/CCS-2/Tesla /GB-T/J1772/Mennekes' Type 2), it certainly doesn't hurt to have just one, keeping cost down, utility up and eliminating public unfamiliarity once they've used it once or twice. I think wireless will require at least regional standardization (probably by continent), i.e. CCS-1 or CCS-2 .


I believe anything that causes market confusion for customers is a big hit to the adoption of BEVs. Yes technical minded people and early adopters don't mind multiple standard and carrying around multiple RFID cards, and having to see what is available, and does it work, and how do I get it going. But I use the "will my mom" use it test when it comes to serious adoption of technology. Because by that point it is just as easy to deal with the new paradigm as the old one OR there is such a compelling advantage that she just has to use it (think iPhone/iPad).

Its not as trivial as you may think to try to explain the various formats and vendors to people who don't care. They just want to "fill up."

Which kind of why I was saying if there are different inductive standards, or multiple vendors, I can't explain to "mom" why her car didn't charge at this spot, but it did over there.

GetOffYourGas
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:45 am

Can you explain to your mom why she should grab the gasoline pump, and avoid the diesel? If so, I don't see why she couldn't also understand that *this* EVSE will work for her car, but not *that* EVSE? It's a hassle for sure, but assuming different standards are clearly marked, it is hardly past the ability of the average person.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
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epirali
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 8:36 am

GetOffYourGas wrote:Can you explain to your mom why she should grab the gasoline pump, and avoid the diesel? If so, I don't see why she couldn't also understand that *this* EVSE will work for her car, but not *that* EVSE? It's a hassle for sure, but assuming different standards are clearly marked, it is hardly past the ability of the average person.


Its a good point, but its more akin to explaining why you can get diesel here, but not there, and gas here, but not there. And at this pump you have to use this credit card, but on this one you can only use the other one.

Also we are simply used to the idea, it is very old. As I said for people who are tech savvy or are early adopters these things are trivial. But you can't dismiss the fact that many people stuck to their old flip phones or RIM phones for way longer than they should have.

GRA
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:11 pm

epirali wrote:
GetOffYourGas wrote:Can you explain to your mom why she should grab the gasoline pump, and avoid the diesel? If so, I don't see why she couldn't also understand that *this* EVSE will work for her car, but not *that* EVSE? It's a hassle for sure, but assuming different standards are clearly marked, it is hardly past the ability of the average person.

Its a good point, but its more akin to explaining why you can get diesel here, but not there, and gas here, but not there. And at this pump you have to use this credit card, but on this one you can only use the other one.

Also we are simply used to the idea, it is very old. As I said for people who are tech savvy or are early adopters these things are trivial. But you can't dismiss the fact that many people stuck to their old flip phones or RIM phones for way longer than they should have.

As someone who resolutely refuses to give up his flip phone (my first and only cell, which I only caved in and bought in Dec. 2007, and which doesn't even have a camera; it's a phone, FCS), I resemble that remark, even if I am fairly tech savvy. :lol: But in my youth I spent 9 years living in a home without a phone at all, and 6 or 7 ditto without a (working) car, so my standards of what's essential as opposed to what's nice to have differ from most Americans.

I agree that different standards do make things more difficult, but a lot of the added difficulty can be eliminated through better signage (color coding of the different charging standards, say) plus a little more education during the buying process (admittedly difficult given the low level of knowledge of the typical car salesperson). Different cards will go away eventually, or at least be cross-compatible through joining networks ala' ATMs. So, while I agree that multiple standards do cause some extra difficulty in the early stages, I expect they'll fade away to manageable by the time BEVs cross the chasm. Besides, it gives early adopters another topic to pontificate about!
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

epirali
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 4:48 pm

GRA wrote:I agree that different standards do make things more difficult, but a lot of the added difficulty can be eliminated through better signage (color coding of the different charging standards, say) plus a little more education during the buying process (admittedly difficult given the low level of knowledge of the typical car salesperson). Different cards will go away eventually, or at least be cross-compatible through joining networks ala' ATMs. So, while I agree that multiple standards do cause some extra difficulty in the early stages, I expect they'll fade away to manageable by the time BEVs cross the chasm. Besides, it gives early adopters another topic to pontificate about!


Yes, the same way VHS and beta gained cross compatibility, or same way android and iOS gained cross compatibility, or how we can all use ATMs without paying any fees...I don't see the competing business interests all coming together and singing happy songs just for us. Will every Model 3 owner happily pay $450 for Chademo and another $450 for CCS fast charge adapter? Maybe I'm just bitter because my tesla roadster is not compatible with Teslas own model S charger and trips almost every single L2 charger I plug it into.

I am not as optimistic sorry to say. Each group has interest in isolating users.

GRA
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Mon Aug 24, 2015 5:19 pm

epirali wrote:
GRA wrote:I agree that different standards do make things more difficult, but a lot of the added difficulty can be eliminated through better signage (color coding of the different charging standards, say) plus a little more education during the buying process (admittedly difficult given the low level of knowledge of the typical car salesperson). Different cards will go away eventually, or at least be cross-compatible through joining networks ala' ATMs. So, while I agree that multiple standards do cause some extra difficulty in the early stages, I expect they'll fade away to manageable by the time BEVs cross the chasm. Besides, it gives early adopters another topic to pontificate about!

Yes, the same way VHS and beta gained cross compatibility, or same way android and iOS gained cross compatibility, or how we can all use ATMs without paying any fees...I don't see the competing business interests all coming together and singing happy songs just for us. Will every Model 3 owner happily pay $450 for Chademo and another $450 for CCS fast charge adapter? Maybe I'm just bitter because my tesla roadster is not compatible with Teslas own model S charger and trips almost every single L2 charger I plug it into.

I am not as optimistic sorry to say. Each group has interest in isolating users.

Of course, the other option, which has been much discussed here, is that one standard will overwhelm the others in a given region, if not worldwide, which is what happened in the case of VHS/Beta. As to paying fees to use ATMs, you're paying for convenience, and if you don't want to pay you can use only your own bank's (what I do other than in emergency, which means I've had to pay an ATM fee about twice in 30+ years). Would I prefer that I could use any bank's ATM without an extra fee? Sure, but not doing so's workable.

OT: I haven't seen any news about the Roadster battery upgrade in a while, and I've always wondered if they were going to offer SC compatibility with that.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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