epirali
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Thu Aug 27, 2015 1:58 am

GRA wrote:OT: I haven't seen any news about the Roadster battery upgrade in a while, and I've always wondered if they were going to offer SC compatibility with that.


Yes it's gone quiet. I honestly don't see the point. The roadster is NOT a car you WANT to drive for 200 miles at a time, much less 400. And in track use the thermal power reduction kicks in WAY before you run out of juice. So I am not sure who would get the upgrade.

And I doubt it about SC support, the Roadster could always handle 70a but they never worked out the kinks and have shown no interest in providing an adapter or charge stalls. It would probably also need a modified power module and there are too few of them around for it to be worthwhile.

GRA
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Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Thu Aug 27, 2015 4:08 pm

epirali wrote:
GRA wrote:OT: I haven't seen any news about the Roadster battery upgrade in a while, and I've always wondered if they were going to offer SC compatibility with that.


Yes it's gone quiet. I honestly don't see the point. The roadster is NOT a car you WANT to drive for 200 miles at a time, much less 400. And in track use the thermal power reduction kicks in WAY before you run out of juice. So I am not sure who would get the upgrade.

And I doubt it about SC support, the Roadster could always handle 70a but they never worked out the kinks and have shown no interest in providing an adapter or charge stalls. It would probably also need a modified power module and there are too few of them around for it to be worthwhile.

Is it that uncomfortable? I've read that the cooling fans are quite loud, but don't recall much about the ride quality. My Datsun 2000 Roadster could be taken on long road trips in reasonable comfort, so what's the issue with the Tesla? I thought they had provided an adapter to let you use the Model S HPWC connectors at least, but maybe I'm misinformed. I have no idea what might be involved in providing SC compatibility, but it just seems like a good idea in general.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

epirali
Posts: 581
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:15 am
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Fri Aug 28, 2015 1:27 am

GRA wrote:Is it that uncomfortable? I've read that the cooling fans are quite loud, but don't recall much about the ride quality. My Datsun 2000 Roadster could be taken on long road trips in reasonable comfort, so what's the issue with the Tesla? I thought they had provided an adapter to let you use the Model S HPWC connectors at least, but maybe I'm misinformed. I have no idea what might be involved in providing SC compatibility, but it just seems like a good idea in general.


Well, between the suspension that lets you "inspect" the fine grain of every pebble in the road in detail (seriously hitting a tiny metal rise at the edge of a bridge at 65 requires bracing yourself) and the fact that nothing remain anywhere in any compartment while driving (well, that is MOSTLY my fault) and lack of space it really is not a long drive car. It is a Lotus, it was meant to be taken to track days and throw around on curvy roads. It wasn't designed for humans to drive to the grocery store! The prize you get for that kind of suspension is pretty insane cornering/handling ability, but anyone who wants to drive it for 200+ miles is a masochist or is trying to repent for something.

The fans work very actively but the car just can not get rid of heat fast enough when pushed (which is the same with Model S). So you can use all the power for a brief period of time, then the car has to cool down.

I have never seen any kind of adapter except for L2, and those don't work (the car trips most L2 EVSEs by ground fault, and this is normal).

GRA
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:49 pm

epirali wrote:
GRA wrote:Is it that uncomfortable? I've read that the cooling fans are quite loud, but don't recall much about the ride quality. My Datsun 2000 Roadster could be taken on long road trips in reasonable comfort, so what's the issue with the Tesla? I thought they had provided an adapter to let you use the Model S HPWC connectors at least, but maybe I'm misinformed. I have no idea what might be involved in providing SC compatibility, but it just seems like a good idea in general.


Well, between the suspension that lets you "inspect" the fine grain of every pebble in the road in detail (seriously hitting a tiny metal rise at the edge of a bridge at 65 requires bracing yourself) and the fact that nothing remain anywhere in any compartment while driving (well, that is MOSTLY my fault) and lack of space it really is not a long drive car. It is a Lotus, it was meant to be taken to track days and throw around on curvy roads. It wasn't designed for humans to drive to the grocery store! The prize you get for that kind of suspension is pretty insane cornering/handling ability, but anyone who wants to drive it for 200+ miles is a masochist or is trying to repent for something.

The fans work very actively but the car just can not get rid of heat fast enough when pushed (which is the same with Model S). So you can use all the power for a brief period of time, then the car has to cool down.

I have never seen any kind of adapter except for L2, and those don't work (the car trips most L2 EVSEs by ground fault, and this is normal).

A long time ago (before I got my license) I knew someone with a purple Lotus Europa, and while I can't directly comment on the driving qualities, from a passenger's point of view it certainly would corner.

The Datsun had a very rudimentary suspension (you'd get rear axle windup anytime you made a sharp right turn while accelerating) and fairly stiff shocks, and with its short wheelbase truck heaves on the freeway were like driving into a head sea with short, steep waves - you could get quite a pounding/rocking. But I don't remember the ride as being uncomfortable with a good surface. Might have had something to do with the fact that it had 165/80-14 tires. If you put 185/70-14s on it, they'd rub the inside of the fender wells anytime the suspension was compressed much. I've never been a big fan of super-low profile tires.

Maybe I was just younger then, and willing to put up with more - after the exhaust pipe developed a leak directly under me I drove around with a 'heated driver's seat' for about a year, winter and summer! :lol: That car was a lot of fun, and other than its lack of carrying capacity, practical for commuting as well.

Another friend had a Honda S2000 for a while, and although it benefitted from about 35 years of refinement compared to the Datsun, reminded me a lot of it, and I could easily have seen using one as my daily drive, although I prefer an engine with enough low-end torque that I don't have to row the gears for routine driving, and Honda engines tend to be peaky. The 1st gen Miata didn't fit me, always struck me as sort of meek looking, and they've always seemed to be a bit weak in the engine department. But they may well be better now, and by all accounts they have a near perfect blend of power and handling.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 6844
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:16 pm

OT
epirali wrote:
GRA wrote:OT: I haven't seen any news about the Roadster battery upgrade in a while, and I've always wondered if they were going to offer SC compatibility with that.


Yes it's gone quiet. I honestly don't see the point. The roadster is NOT a car you WANT to drive for 200 miles at a time, much less 400. And in track use the thermal power reduction kicks in WAY before you run out of juice. So I am not sure who would get the upgrade.

And I doubt it about SC support, the Roadster could always handle 70a but they never worked out the kinks and have shown no interest in providing an adapter or charge stalls. It would probably also need a modified power module and there are too few of them around for it to be worthwhile.

ievs has the news:
Tesla Roadster Battery Upgrade, 330+ Miles Of Range Priced At $29,000
http://insideevs.com/tesla-roadster-upg ... ent-725987
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 6844
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:58 pm

FWIW, via ievs:
Wireless Charging To Displace Conductive Charging By 2028?
http://insideevs.com/wireless-charging/
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GetOffYourGas
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Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Sep 02, 2015 6:33 am

GRA wrote:FWIW, via ievs:
Wireless Charging To Displace Conductive Charging By 2028?
http://insideevs.com/wireless-charging/


Displace? Yes. Replace? Probably never.

The question isn't whether wireless charging will displace some wired charging, but rather how much. I can't see it ever being a wholesale replacement for a simple set of wires though.

I'm also sure that eventually some -if not all- EVs will come stock with a wireless charger. Who will be first? My money is on an Infiniti LE waiting in the wings for the next gen battery.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

leafdecision
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:51 am

The GM EV1 was actually "wireless" charging, in that there was no actual metal-to-metal connection. You had to insert the "paddle" in the slot, but the charging was inductive.

How far we've come since then. Not.

GetOffYourGas
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Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:25 am

leafdecision wrote:The GM EV1 was actually "wireless" charging, in that there was no actual metal-to-metal connection. You had to insert the "paddle" in the slot, but the charging was inductive.

How far we've come since then. Not.


Yeah, that kind of wireless is pretty much the worst of both worlds. Not sure what advantage it has over a J1772 connection...
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

User avatar
RegGuheert
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Sep 02, 2015 12:49 pm

GRA wrote:FWIW, via ievs:
Wireless Charging To Displace Conductive Charging By 2028?
http://insideevs.com/wireless-charging/
One of the comments in that article pointed to Momentum Dynamics. That commentor claims they have 91% efficiency for the wireless portion of their charging system today and are shooting for 93% efficiency:
kdawg wrote:Momentum Dynamics wireless charging system claims to be as efficient as plugging in.

“Efficiency would be on par with a plug Miller said. The wireless portion has demonstrated 91-percent efficiency and Momentum is shooting for 93 percent. On-board chargers (OBC) have similar efficiency at handling current delivered by traditional plug-in electric vehicle service equipment (EVSE), said Miller. So, while the solid cord connection is more-efficient at delivering current to the OBC, losses elsewhere in the power processing and routing make what EVs now rely on no better than Momentum’s setup.”

They can also charge at 25kW, and are working on 50kw and 100kW systems.
I'm not sure where they got that quote from, but that sounds pretty decent considering the size of the air gap.

Still, I prefer being able to plug in, not only for the efficiency, but also because I sometimes park the car outside when the garage has junk in it.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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