GetOffYourGas
Posts: 1446
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:56 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Mar 2012
Location: Syracuse, NY

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Sep 02, 2015 1:21 pm

RegGuheert wrote:Still, I prefer being able to plug in, not only for the efficiency, but also because I sometimes park the car outside when the garage has junk in it.


This is the bottom line for anyone living in the real world. I have things I'm moving around. Plus, I have kids to move things I don't want to move ;) I simply cannot assure that I always park my car in the same spot every day of the year.

Moreover, I have a fleet of EVs now. My wife and I can easily swap the plug back and forth as needed, without moving the cars. We'd either need two (somewhat expensive) pads, or have to constantly juggle cars.
~Brian

EV Fleet:
2011 Torqeedo Travel 1003 electric outboard on a 22' sailboat
2012 Leaf SV
2015 C-Max Energi (302A package)

GRA
Posts: 6832
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:01 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:
leafdecision wrote:The GM EV1 was actually "wireless" charging, in that there was no actual metal-to-metal connection. You had to insert the "paddle" in the slot, but the charging was inductive.

How far we've come since then. Not.


Yeah, that kind of wireless is pretty much the worst of both worlds. Not sure what advantage it has over a J1772 connection...

At the time, safety was the selling point, i.e. no potentially hot, exposed contacts.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
Posts: 6832
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Sep 02, 2015 4:13 pm

GetOffYourGas wrote:
GRA wrote:FWIW, via ievs:
Wireless Charging To Displace Conductive Charging By 2028?
http://insideevs.com/wireless-charging/


Displace? Yes. Replace? Probably never.

The question isn't whether wireless charging will displace some wired charging, but rather how much. I can't see it ever being a wholesale replacement for a simple set of wires though.

I'm also sure that eventually some -if not all- EVs will come stock with a wireless charger. Who will be first? My money is on an Infiniti LE waiting in the wings for the next gen battery.

For public charging, I expect wireless to entirely replace wired. The advantages from the maintenance, vandalism and liability standpoints (here in the land of 'trip and fall') are too big to ignore. I suspect most people who have a garage and are willing/able to make room in it so they can park a car there instead of using it to store their 'stuff', will also opt for wireless, as the convenience of not needing to remember to plug in will outweigh any efficiency concerns for all but the most dedicated purists.

As to which cars will get it first, most of the high-end plug-ins that are in the design stage are being designed for it, but whether it will be a Japanese, German or even U.S. car remains to be seen.
Last edited by GRA on Tue Sep 08, 2015 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

epirali
Posts: 581
Joined: Wed Oct 09, 2013 10:15 am
Delivery Date: 08 Oct 2013
Leaf Number: 418541
Location: Maryland

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Mon Sep 07, 2015 3:16 pm

GRA wrote:ievs has the news:
Tesla Roadster Battery Upgrade, 330+ Miles Of Range Priced At $29,000
http://insideevs.com/tesla-roadster-upg ... ent-725987


Thank you for the link. I don't think I am tempted (yet) but will definitely check it out.

edatoakrun
Posts: 4295
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:33 am
Delivery Date: 15 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2184
Location: Shasta County, North California

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:48 pm

2018 is not that far away...

All non-electric fuels will probably eventually be replaced by electricity (if not for other reasons) because electricity is the only fuel that will be delivered while-you-drive.

And while we may see the first large-scale kWh deliveries in freeway right lanes with trucks, I expect that we soon after will also see it in the high-speed (autonomous) left lane.

Batteries of modest capacities will still be in the vehicles of course, for regenerative braking, local driving, and for the final miles to your destination after you leave the chargeway.

Electric Trucking Charges Up
In a pilot project, vehicles equipped with ‘receiving coils’ will draw power from another coil buried in the road in Colorado


Officials in Colorado are planning a public-road test of battery-charging technology capable of powering electric trucks while they drive.

In the pilot project, believed to be the first of its kind in the U.S., vehicles equipped with “receiving coils” will draw power from another coil buried in the road. The Colorado Transportation Department and infrastructure developer Aecom Inc. are scouting potential sites, including busy roads near Denver International Airport, with a goal of launching in 2018.

Heavy-duty electric trucks remain a rare sight on highways, in part because they need to make frequent stops to recharge and must carry heavy, expensive batteries. The pilot’s developers say their goal is to extend the distances electric trucks can drive and reduce the bulkiness of in-vehicle batteries...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-tr ... 1481212800
no condition is permanent

GRA
Posts: 6832
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Fri Dec 09, 2016 4:50 pm

edatoakrun wrote:2018 is not that far away...

All non-electric fuels will probably eventually be replaced by electricity (if not for other reasons) because electricity is the only fuel that will be delivered while-you-drive.

And while we may see the first large-scale kWh deliveries in freeway right lanes with trucks, I expect that we soon after will also see it in the high-speed (autonomous) left lane.

Batteries of modest capacities will still be in the vehicles of course, for regenerative braking, local driving, and for the final miles to your destination after you leave the chargeway.

Electric Trucking Charges Up
In a pilot project, vehicles equipped with ‘receiving coils’ will draw power from another coil buried in the road in Colorado


Officials in Colorado are planning a public-road test of battery-charging technology capable of powering electric trucks while they drive.

In the pilot project, believed to be the first of its kind in the U.S., vehicles equipped with “receiving coils” will draw power from another coil buried in the road. The Colorado Transportation Department and infrastructure developer Aecom Inc. are scouting potential sites, including busy roads near Denver International Airport, with a goal of launching in 2018.

Heavy-duty electric trucks remain a rare sight on highways, in part because they need to make frequent stops to recharge and must carry heavy, expensive batteries. The pilot’s developers say their goal is to extend the distances electric trucks can drive and reduce the bulkiness of in-vehicle batteries...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/electric-tr ... 1481212800

While I'm all for demo projects like this, one does wonder just how we're supposed to pay for this if adopted on a large scale, seeing as how we're not even willing (well, our pols aren't; the public seems to be willing) to pay to maintain the far less expensive road infrastructure we have now.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

arnis
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Mon Dec 12, 2016 4:16 am

People think, hope and expect that electrified roads will really happen. This is very very silly.

First I would like to remind that trolleybuses and trams are very old inventions. And they both run on electricity.
Secondly I would like to remind that power to run those is extremely high. Even for a car to have
any meaningful effect effective power transfer should be at least 15 kWh.
Due to efficiency losses input power per car should be at least 20 kWh. ONE vehicle!
This requires a lot of copper, per one feet. I would say even for one inch.
Now to make any meaningful sense this highway must be electrified for hundreds of miles/kilometers.
This will cost billions. Literally. Even if we find ultra-simple way to build that we need tons of copper
and copper will not get cheap because of demand (like in battery industry). More demand for copper
results higher cost of it. In addition to that we need to replace that copper structure often. Due to the fact
that we can NOT bury it in the lower asphalt layer. It will be so far away that efficiency will fall below 50% in ideal conditions.

Looking in the near future (few decades) there is absolutely no slightly positive outcomes that end with reasonable results.

Even if we look at wired up highways.
https://www.scania.com/group/en/wp-cont ... lvag-1.jpg
It has big cost per mile. This is why it has been done only for low mileage high-usage city traffic (trolleybuses and trams).

Wired version is cheaper, in the order of magnitude - and it is still not happening. It could be done for hundred years already.

Wireless roads are not going to happen any time soon - and even if they could happen, they don't make a slightest sense.
It is not possible to cover all roads. Therefore ALL normal vehicles must have tens of kilowatt-hours of batteries on board.
Adding wireless capability only on the car side will cost 20-40kWh of battery capacity + space for that capacity.
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 11666
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:44 am

well, I have to say... "guess not"
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles. 2016 S30; 13001 miles. 363 GIDs, Ahr 82.34, Hx; 102ish% kwh 28.1 QCs 112
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

arnis
Posts: 700
Joined: Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:21 pm
Delivery Date: 23 Jul 2014
Leaf Number: 015896
Location: Estonia, Europe

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:34 am

guess
verb
gerund or present participle: guessing
estimate or conclude (something) without sufficient information to be sure of being correct.
"she guessed the child's age at 14 or 15"
synonyms: estimate, calculate, approximate, make a guess at, make an estimate of; More
form a correct conclusion about (something) by guessing.
"she's guessed where we're going"
informal
used to indicate that although one thinks or supposes something, it is without any great conviction or strength of feeling.
"I guess I'd better tell you everything"
Short range EVs <30kWh -- Medium range: 30-60kWh -- Long range: >60kWh
Charging: Trickle <3kW -- Normal 3-22kW -- Fast 50-100kW -- Supercharging >100kW

GRA
Posts: 6832
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Dec 14, 2016 5:42 pm

Via GCC:
Wireless charging bench testing complete, proving interoperability and validating SAE TIR J2954
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/12 ... j2954.html

SAE International is working to ensure that electric vehicle wireless power transfer systems from different manufacturers can interoperate seamlessly with each other to prepare for commercialization in 2020. Idaho National Laboratory (INL) and TDK R&D Corporation, along with the US Department of Energy (DOE), automotive companies and suppliers have completed bench testing to support the SAE Technical Information Report (TIR) J2954. (Earlier post.) SAE TIR J2954 is a guideline for the wireless charging of plug-in electric vehicles that was published by the SAE International (formerly the Society of Automotive Engineers) earlier this year.

The SAE TIR J2954 provides guidance to ensure performance and safety of Wireless Power Transfer (WPT) Systems provided from one vendor as well as interoperability when parts of the system are provided from different vendors. For the first time, interoperability between the so-called Double D (DD) and Circular Topologies has been demonstrated between 3.7 to 7.7 kW with efficiencies exceeding 85-90% under aligned conditions. . . .

INL researchers contributed to the SAE J2954 validation by testing wireless charging systems from three companies—Toyota, WiTricity, and Qualcomm—in the summer and fall of 2016. The WiTricity system—submitted in cooperation with Nissan—and the Qualcomm system—submitted in cooperation with Jaguar-Land Rover—both operated at up to 7.7 kW. . . .

Engineers from Toyota, Nissan, WiTricity, and Qualcomm collaborated with both INL and TDK on site in a series of tests on the interoperability of their respective wireless charging systems. The tests allowed those engineers to adjust their company’s systems in real time to improve interoperability performance. . . .

The SAE TIR J2954 also has a significant part of its content dedicated to EMC (electromagnetic compatibility) and EMF (electromagnetic field) validation of WPT systems. The same companies that underwent testing at INL continued their testing at TDK R&D Corporation’s Texas based electromagnetics lab for this aspect of the evaluation. . . .
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

Return to “Batteries & Charging”