Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

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edatoakrun

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 11, 2010
Messages
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Location
Shasta County, North California
With the two manufactures who will (IMO) probably be leading in sales of PHEVs and BEVs respectively both introducing inductive charging in the next few years, will other BEV/PHEV manufactures hold out for cables and plugs?

Technical and efficiency arguments aside, I think most buyers will consider this a very desirable feature, and I find it hard to believe that Tesla or Cadillac will be selling vehicles requiring plugs in ~2016, if Nissan and Toyota will be selling vehicles that "plug themselves in", at a small fraction of the cost of the big-bucks "Luxury" BEV/PHEVs.

...What’s in store for future PiPs? Ogiso had this to say:

“We have been listening very carefully to Prius PHV owners and are considering their requests for additional all-electric range. We have also heard from owners that they would like a more convenient charging operation. In response, we are developing a new wireless/inductive charging system that produces resonance between an on-floor coil and an onboard coil to transmit power to the battery, providing charging without the fuss of a cable.”

Ogiso adds that verification testing will be conducted on wireless charging in Japan, the US and Europe in 2014...
http://insideevs.com/next-gen-toyota-prius-plug-in-hybrid-to-get-more-electric-range-55-mpg-combined-and-wireless-charging-capability/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


...Nissan Motors told reporters at a product preview of future models that the company now has plans for five plug-in vehicles in its future – and that Nissan is preparing inductive charging for all of them...
http://insideevs.com/nissan-confirms-addition-of-two-new-plug-in-vehicles-to-future-lineup-inductive-charging-for-all/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BTW, I was visiting a friend in the Bay Area who drives a PIP last week.

He has a short commute, and plugs in at home and at work to get most of his commute miles on E.

It occurs to me that he probably plugs/unplugs his PIP ~ 70 or 80 times a month, while I only do it ~ 20 or 25 times, on average, to drive ~ twice as many miles on E.

So, maybe inductive charging will be even more desirable for the short-E-range PHEV drivers, than for BEV drivers.
 
RegGuheert said:
Let the inductive-charging-standards wars begin! :cry:

My best guess is that there will emerge a public DC high-kW fast-charge standard, that requires a plug and cable (making the SAE combo plug irrelevant) and (unfortunately) multiple proprietary low-kW inductive standards for home charging.

Most of the current public L2 would soon die out anyway, due to it's inherent cost/convenience disadvantages compared with DC, but inductive charging will certainly hasten public L2 plug-in's demise.
 
Will be cool when we can charge while driving and or be pushed by magnets on the freeways like a maglev train.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maglev" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
That cable is such a "fuss". I'm glad to see someone is facing up to this threat to the human condition, like the brave souls who came up with the seedless watermelon.
 
Nubo said:
I have a personal stake. My wife cannot be around strong EMF.
I wonder what the definition is of strong EMF is? My understanding is that these systems do not emit strong EMF.

http://www.theengineer.co.uk/automotive/in-depth/your-questions-answered-inductive-charging-for-road-vehicles/1015724.article" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

quote:
How vulnerable are people with pacemakers or other electronic implants that would be affected by electromagnetic fields and how do you protect them?

That’s another area in which we do a lot of simulation and testing. We’ve also done a lot of work in understanding from the manufacturers of medical devices what sort of limits they build to and shield for. There’s not a set of rules that says wireless charging must meet certain regulations for pacemakers. So one of our roles is to help the regulators understand and develop those guidelines. At the moment what we’ve done is talk to manufacturers – I think there’s over 1000 different models on the planet – to understand what they build to and we shield for that.
 
Even though inductive charging has been around for some time, most handheld electronics don't take advantage of it, at least not from the factory. Even the Apple iPhone does not come with inductive charging out of the box; you have to buy a third party case that gives it that feature.

For years I had a Panasonic wet-dry shaver that charged inductively. When the battery stopped holding a charge after several years' of use, the only replacement I could find from Panasonic was one that used a plug.

I looked around my home and looked for things that could benefit from the convenience of an inductive charger. I already mentioned my cell phone and shaver don't have it. My cordless landline phone? Nope, there are little contacts at the bottom of the handset. My tablet computers? Nope, they still have to be plugged in through some sort of port. My remote controls? Nope, they still use replaceable internal batteries.The only thing I still have that uses inductive charging is my Crest rechargeable toothbrush.

So if most manufacturers don't feel it's worthwhile for relatively low-power electronics, they probably think it's a bigger hassle for something as power-hungry as an electric car.
 
Efficiency, cost, and installation will drive this. Charge a Tesla and pay for 7kw per charge to loss, no thanks. Not to mention the cost of the sheer waste to the grid that would add up. People use LED lights to save power, good luck making that up with bulb changes. No way would I use it for an EV.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Efficiency, cost, and installation will drive this. Charge a Tesla and pay for 7kw per charge to loss, no thanks. Not to mention the cost of the sheer waste to the grid that would add up. People use LED lights to save power, good luck making that up with bulb changes. No way would I use it for an EV.
I expect autonomous cars will make inductive charging pretty much mandatory, but we've got to do something to make it more efficient.
 
GRA said:
I expect autonomous cars will make inductive charging pretty much mandatory, but we've got to do something to make it more efficient.
What about an automated mechanical coupling? You could even keep the J1772 protocol.
 
infrastructure cost will be more of a hassle. Ripping up concrete/ashphalt to install an electrical line is a small deal (and sometimes its already there!). Ripping up and entire square of it is more costly for something that is only a slightly less inconvienent. Thats a large cost to cover it. Add the fact repairs will be worse because you would have to dig it back out - I just don't see it soon. The efficiencies will need to be way better and more forgiving on alignment of the vehicle. Also, if you could set charging speed independent of the onboard charger, especially if its significantly faster, that would have relievence. I more see this in new construction versus replacing what is out there.
 
JeremyW said:
GRA said:
I expect autonomous cars will make inductive charging pretty much mandatory, but we've got to do something to make it more efficient.
What about an automated mechanical coupling? You could even keep the J1772 protocol.

That's what I was thinking. I'd rather have some system that when you park the car over a certain spot, it automatically lines up and inserts a charging plug under the car. It might be less reliable than wireless charging, but would certainly be more efficient.
 
Plugs are going to be around for a while.
I grew up in an industry environment where Brasilions of $$ are spent on wireless digital systems, and you know what?
It's damn hard to achieve the same level of stability, reliability, efficiency and cost of a pair of copper wires, no matter what you spend.

If you are old enough to remember, we have had wireless charging of various things for lots of years.... but you don't see many around.
(I had a wireless charging electric toothbrush 25 years ago)

If they cant even come up with a cost effective and OEM standard to charge the 1B cell phones in the world, I'm not holding my breath for a wireless EV charging standard.
(Hell.. they can't even agree on a WIRED standard. Pick Betamax!... Pick Betamax! It was Soooo superior to VHS. Idiots!)

I have often pondered a "semi-automatic" charge coupling connection just for me.... But..

Plugs are here to stay for a very long time
 
Nubo said:
I have a personal stake. My wife cannot be around strong EMF.
Same with my wife :cool:

bride2.jpg


Sadly - and on a serious note - it's Toyota of all companies that's been fanning the anti-EV controversey flames most recently. And who'd of thought it'd be Toyota. It was their Prius that made GM's smear campaign against fuel efficiency seem so out of touch with reality. Now, it seems as though they've become the new GM - what with their hydrogen hoax chasing after the wind.

.
 
I think paying an attendant to plug in cars as they drive up will be cheaper then wireless charging. One person can easily cover 20 plugs. It takes what 20 seconds to plug in? They can also keep down theft, wash sensors, clean out the interior of fleet taxis, etc. Humans are not obsolete yet! Give us time. Besides we need to do something with all these damn millennials hogging up basement space.
 
JeremyW said:
GRA said:
I expect autonomous cars will make inductive charging pretty much mandatory, but we've got to do something to make it more efficient.
What about an automated mechanical coupling? You could even keep the J1772 protocol.

If an autonomous car can figure out how to react to the chain-smoking, texting, situationally unaware buffoons on the road, they can certainly figure out how to dock with a plug.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcBs-fj4ORY[/youtube]
 
I owned a couple of cars with GM "Magnachargers" that were inductively coupled to the vehicle (via a paddle). The expense of the transmitter to generate the HF power for the paddle and the receiver to get it back to something the vehicle charger could use along with the physical size and power loss feels like a step backwards. Let's complicate something that works, add a efficiency loss along with higher costs for the vehicle and the EVSE. Let's also make the EVSE so large that you cannot really make it portable. Then we can change standards. Large paddle inductive or small paddle inductive? IR or RF communication between the EVSE and the Vehicle? All this took place in the short lifetime of the Magnacharger. Just the paddle cost a fortune to replace---what will a mat to drive the car on cost? How easy will it be to position the vehicle over the proper "spot" to get the best coupling between the transformers? Will all cars have to be designed to put the vehicle transformer in the same spot? Hint: we cannot come to agreement as to where the J1772 connector should go. I hate to rant, but if it is too hard to plug a vehicle in to charge, maybe you shouldn't be driving.
 
Pipcecil said:
infrastructure cost will be more of a hassle. Ripping up concrete/ashphalt to install an electrical line is a small deal (and sometimes its already there!). Ripping up and entire square of it is more costly for something that is only a slightly less inconvienent. Thats a large cost to cover it. Add the fact repairs will be worse because you would have to dig it back out - I just don't see it soon. The efficiencies will need to be way better and more forgiving on alignment of the vehicle. Also, if you could set charging speed independent of the onboard charger, especially if its significantly faster, that would have relievence. I more see this in new construction versus replacing what is out there.
One of the suggestions I've seen is to put the inductive charging infrastructure in the curb, for cars that will park nose in. That way you only need to remove and replace the six inches or so of curbs, instead of digging up much of the space. Makes repairs cheaper too, and you can combine that with installing the curbs on pedestrian walkways in parking lots between the two lines of cars, making things safer for people walking to and from their cars. City cars will be shorter, and autonomous cars can be parked closer together (no need to provide room for door opening/ingress/egress), so gaining back any space that is lost to the walkways. Beyond that, if cars have wheel hub motors you can have all four wheels pivot, allowing 360 degree in-place turns which will allow narrower parking aisles (see the Roomba video up a couple of posts). For some details, see

"Reinventing the Automobile: Personal Urban Mobility for the 21st Century"; Mitchell, William J; Borroni-Bird, Christopher E.; and Burns, Lawrence D.; 2010. Describes how urban cars can be transformed by a combination of four ideas: transforming the DNA (i.e. design principles) of autos, via electric drive and wireless communications; The Mobility Internet, data sharing between vehicles, parking spaces, roads etc. to minimize congestion and travel time; integration of EVs with a Smart, clean grid; real-time controls for urban mobility and energy systems, i.e. dynamic pricing for electricity, roads, parking, and shared vehicles. Burns was VP of R&D at GM from 1998-2009, Borroni-Bird was Director of Advanced Technology Vehicle Concepts, also at GM; Mitchell is a professor at MIT, and head of the Smart Cities Group there.
 
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