smkettner
Posts: 7220
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:45 pm

How many OEM vehicles are produced with an inductive charging system?
I say the era of the paddle died with the EV1.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
I-Pace on order for end of 2018 delivery

GRA
Posts: 9512
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:07 pm

RegGuheert wrote:Gas cooking is even less efficient than electric resistance cooking. Do you always prefer fossil fuels over electricity? (Car, range, oven, water heater...)

Please provide a source for that, because I don't believe I've ever seen that claim before, especially when the alternative is to use the gas to make electricity. See e.g. https://home.howstuffworks.com/gas-vs-electric-stoves2.htm
Now, inductive cooking may be a different matter: https://www.treehugger.com/kitchen-design/which-more-energy-efficient-cooking-gas-or-induction.html

And no, I don't prefer fossil fuels over electricity, I use whichever one best meets my needs and is available, but prefer not using energy first, then using what remains efficiently, then renewable generation. If all three are possible, great. Of course, when I was doing off-grid stuff, I leaned strongly towards renewables instead of fossil fuels, as did my customers, but even there the sequence was the same: First don't use it; 2nd use what you do as efficiently as possible; and finally generate what remains with renewables (whenever possible). Having done the whole solar oven bit in the past, and sold them too, they simply don't fit my lifestyle or circumstances now. They are the exact opposite of a microwave when it comes to convenience, but they are unquestionably the lowest environmental impact as well as the cheapest way to cook.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
Posts: 6332
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Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:03 am

GRA wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:Gas cooking is even less efficient than electric resistance cooking. Do you always prefer fossil fuels over electricity? (Car, range, oven, water heater...)

Please provide a source for that, because I don't believe I've ever seen that claim before, especially when the alternative is to use the gas to make electricity. See e.g. https://home.howstuffworks.com/gas-vs-electric-stoves2.htm
Now, inductive cooking may be a different matter: https://www.treehugger.com/kitchen-design/which-more-energy-efficient-cooking-gas-or-induction.html
Sure. Here's one:
Jennifer Mitchell-Jackson, while a graduate student at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, measured the energy use of an average microwave oven, an electric stovetop, and a gas stovetop to heat up a mug of water. Turns out that an electric stove uses 25% less electricity than an average microwave oven to heat a mug of water. A gas stove is less efficient and uses more energy than a microwave oven, but depending on the cost of gas, it might cost less to heat a mug of coffee with gas compared to the microwave.
And a gas oven is WAY less efficient than an electric oven since there must be a flow of fresh air through the oven to feed the flame.
GRA wrote:And no, I don't prefer fossil fuels over electricity, I use whichever one best meets my needs and is available, but prefer not using energy first, then using what remains efficiently, then renewable generation. If all three are possible, great. Of course, when I was doing off-grid stuff, I leaned strongly towards renewables instead of fossil fuels, as did my customers, but even there the sequence was the same: First don't use it; 2nd use what you do as efficiently as possible; and finally generate what remains with renewables (whenever possible). Having done the whole solar oven bit in the past, and sold them too, they simply don't fit my lifestyle or circumstances now. They are the exact opposite of a microwave when it comes to convenience, but they are unquestionably the lowest environmental impact as well as the cheapest way to cook.
Gasoline-fueled 4WD vehicle. Inefficient gas cooktop and oven. Gas water heater. We get the picture.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

SageBrush
Posts: 2922
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:27 am

This question of what source energy to use in cooking is complicated. E.g.,

1. If the electricity is from coal, NG is a better choice even though the efficiency is inferior
2. The waste heat should be considered. If it is removed with electric AC, electric is probably better. If it is used to heat up the kitchen, say in the winter-time, the efficiency is 100%.

My general approach for hot water in the kitchen is:
Electricity in the summer using a resistance hot water kettle. The trick here is to not waste hot water.
NG in the winter.

Reheating food is mostly in the microwave
Cooking food is often in the pressure cooker .. and the hot water source determined by the season
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

GRA
Posts: 9512
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:09 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:Gas cooking is even less efficient than electric resistance cooking. Do you always prefer fossil fuels over electricity? (Car, range, oven, water heater...)

Please provide a source for that, because I don't believe I've ever seen that claim before, especially when the alternative is to use the gas to make electricity. See e.g. https://home.howstuffworks.com/gas-vs-electric-stoves2.htm
Now, inductive cooking may be a different matter: https://www.treehugger.com/kitchen-design/which-more-energy-efficient-cooking-gas-or-induction.html
Sure. Here's one:
Jennifer Mitchell-Jackson, while a graduate student at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, measured the energy use of an average microwave oven, an electric stovetop, and a gas stovetop to heat up a mug of water. Turns out that an electric stove uses 25% less electricity than an average microwave oven to heat a mug of water. A gas stove is less efficient and uses more energy than a microwave oven, but depending on the cost of gas, it might cost less to heat a mug of coffee with gas compared to the microwave.
And a gas oven is WAY less efficient than an electric oven since there must be a flow of fresh air through the oven to feed the flame.

Thanks, so we have conflicting sources. Now we just need to find some that include all the numbers.

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:And no, I don't prefer fossil fuels over electricity, I use whichever one best meets my needs and is available, but prefer not using energy first, then using what remains efficiently, then renewable generation. If all three are possible, great. Of course, when I was doing off-grid stuff, I leaned strongly towards renewables instead of fossil fuels, as did my customers, but even there the sequence was the same: First don't use it; 2nd use what you do as efficiently as possible; and finally generate what remains with renewables (whenever possible). Having done the whole solar oven bit in the past, and sold them too, they simply don't fit my lifestyle or circumstances now. They are the exact opposite of a microwave when it comes to convenience, but they are unquestionably the lowest environmental impact as well as the cheapest way to cook.
Gasoline-fueled 4WD vehicle. Inefficient gas cooktop and oven. Gas water heater. We get the picture.

Why yes, that's part of the picture, Reg, but hardly all of it. Bicycle for commuting and local errands beyond walking distance (most routine errands are within .5 mile). Electrified mass transit plus bike for most regional trips. Car sits in driveway for weeks at a time, used less than 3k miles a year (well under 1k this year, owing to constant winter storms and then summer fires that kept me out of the mountains). No flying except for emergencies or bucket list items, until large % of it is renewably fueled (haven't flown anywhere in more than 15 years). Rarely cook (never use the oven, eat out a lot). 120V service only. Live in a 325 sq. ft., well-insulated studio well-sited for passive solar. Have all on/off loads on switched power strips. Don't use outside lights, and only have one on at a time internally (task rather than area lighting whenever possible, and all are CFL at the moment, to be replaced with LEDs as they fail). Use a line for drying clothes, etc. etc.

We all make choices, Reg. How is it you use a car for your local driving, live in a large, detached house and don't cook using a solar oven or use a manually operated washing machine (I used to sell both for my off-grid customers)? Do you fly, or take the train? You have kids. Eat meat (which kinds)? And so on. We all decide how much we're willing to put up with for the sake of saving energy, money or whatever. I'm comfortable with my decisions, I assume you're comfortable with yours, and neither of us is willing to live naked in a hole in the ground or a cave (I have lived in a snow cave for a few days at a time, but that doesn't count).
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
Posts: 6332
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Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:09 pm

The difference is that I don't go to an ICE car forum each and every day and tell the posters there why I choose to drive an EV.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

GRA
Posts: 9512
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 1:49 pm
Location: East side of San Francisco Bay

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:52 pm

RegGuheert wrote:The difference is that I don't go to an ICE car forum each and every day and tell the posters there why I choose to drive an EV.

Hey, knock yourself out. I'm certainly not bashful about recommending EVs to people I know who drive ICEs if I think they're a good fit for them, just as I'm not bashful about not recommending an EV if I don't think it's a good fit for someone. When making such recommendations the point is to give good advice for that person, keeping my own personal choices out of it except where needed to explain my reasoning. What I won't do is oversell any product - they're just tools, not the answer to Life, the Universe and Everything. That's 42. ;)
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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TomT
Posts: 10611
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Leaf Number: 000360
Location: California, now Georgia
Contact: Website

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:38 am

+1! It simply caters to the very lazy!

EVDRIVER wrote:Efficiency, cost, and installation will drive this. Charge a Tesla and pay for 7kw per charge to loss, no thanks. Not to mention the cost of the sheer waste to the grid that would add up. People use LED lights to save power, good luck making that up with bulb changes. No way would I use it for an EV.
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier.

rmay635703
Posts: 467
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:43 pm

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 3:47 pm

RegGuheert wrote:And a gas oven is WAY less efficient than an electric oven since there must be a flow of fresh air through the oven to feed the flame. Gas water heater. We get the picture.


My gas stove and water heater don’t have an air intake.

My stove exhausts into the room, newer stove 99% efficient burn but obviously not all the heat transfers to the food, considering it costs under a tenth the cost per BTU as electricity and it’s used during heating season I believe your statements are inaccurate.

I have a little inductive POS for summer use

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RegGuheert
Posts: 6332
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
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Location: Northern VA

Re: Is the "plug-in" era nearly over?

Thu Dec 14, 2017 4:24 pm

rmay635703 wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:And a gas oven is WAY less efficient than an electric oven since there must be a flow of fresh air through the oven to feed the flame. Gas water heater. We get the picture.
My gas stove and water heater don’t have an air intake.
If by "stove" you mean "oven", then of course it has an air intake. Otherwise the flame would quickly burn out. That air flows in from the bottom and typically vents behind the burners.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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