What Would a Perfect Public Energy Station Be Like???

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TRONZ

TRONZ

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
Messages
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Location
Denver, CO
I have a background in Environmental Design and Architecture so this Topic is VERY interesting to me. As we move away from toxic fuels what will IDEAL public Energy Stations be like??? A wish list;

1. Power sourced ONLY from a clean and renewable resource - Photovoltaics are my favorite and surplus power could be sold back to the local grid.
2. Proven "Plaza" Design features - Such as shade or sunshine for climate, trees/landscaping, places to sit/gather, water features and a unique sense of "place".
3. Clean Restrooms and water fountains.
4. Adjacent Commercial facilities such as Food, Coffee, Smoothies, Bookstore etc.
5. No petroleum construction Materials - Facility is only made from recycled and or renewables.
6. Payment is automatically authorized by MY car when it is plugged in (WiFi ?) - No CC swiping.
7. LEED Platinum Certification - The facility is a showcase to inform the public in Green Design.

Keep it going!

8. ?
9. ?...
 
TRONZ said:
I have a background in Environmental Design and Architecture so this Topic is VERY interesting to me. As we move away from toxic fuels what will IDEAL public Energy Stations be like??? A wish list;

1. Power sourced ONLY from a clean and renewable resource - Photovoltaics are my favorite and surplus power could be sold back to the local grid.
2. Proven "Plaza" Design features - Such as shade or sunshine for climate, trees/landscaping, places to sit/gather, water features and a unique sense of "place".
3. Clean Restrooms and water fountains.
4. Adjacent Commercial facilities such as Food, Coffee, Smoothies, Bookstore etc.
5. No petroleum construction Materials - Facility is only made from recycled and or renewables.
6. Payment is automatically authorized by MY car when it is plugged in (WiFi ?) - No CC swiping.
7. LEED Platinum Certification - The facility is a showcase to inform the public in Green Design.

Keep it going!

8. ?
9. ?...
Click to expand...

Sometimes less is more: ;)

Public%20Charging%20Stations16.jpg
 
Nearby on i-5 there is a nice, wooded Rest Stop, ...

but I am told that it is a place to avoid because it has become
a hangout for drug deals, and a place for gays to "do" each other.

Perhaps because it is usually unsupervised by authority,
it might not be the idillic place you wanted to "create".
 
Flat rate charging. An 80% charge only costs ~$2 in electricity and presumably the vast majority of revenue would be from other sales. Rather than some kind of complicated billing system counting fractions of a penny, just make it simple- $2 to plug in. Or $1 every 15 minutes (so people don't waste the charging space).

Or make it free with purchase. Alternatively, it is cheaper per mile driven for the government to give away free electricity to EV drivers than the current subsidies on ethanol...

Potentially use sponsorship to fund the charging (you have an audience for half an hour). Also would be a good place to showcase new environmentally friendly products to relatively high earners who would be likely to pay for them.

Nissan plans to offer quick charging to the public at dealers in japan. A similar model could be used here, in conjunction with amenities as listed in the original post, and would generate lots of dealer traffic and marketing reinforcement... potentially creating strong brand loyalty.
 
lne937s said:
Flat rate charging. An 80% charge only costs ~$2 in electricity and presumably the vast majority of revenue would be from other sales. Rather than some kind of complicated billing system counting fractions of a penny, just make it simple- $2 to plug in. Or $1 every 15 minutes (so people don't waste the charging space).

Or make it free with purchase. Alternatively, it is cheaper per mile driven for the government to give away free electricity to EV drivers than the current subsidies on ethanol...

Potentially use sponsorship to fund the charging (you have an audience for half an hour). Also would be a good place to showcase new environmentally friendly products to relatively high earners who would be likely to pay for them.

Nissan plans to offer quick charging to the public at dealers in japan. A similar model could be used here, in conjunction with amenities as listed in the original post, and would generate lots of dealer traffic and marketing reinforcement... potentially creating strong brand loyalty.
Click to expand...

Here (Norway) all the charging stations are free (3.6 kW), usually paid for by the town/state. Shopping centres will make electricity available for free to appear green. In the garage where I work there are over 50 locations to charge EVs.
 
Yes if the charging was free we would not need all these fancy high priced EVSE machines filled with redundend features.

Can you imagine if suddenly every outlet in your home needed separate metering? This is borderline what is being accomplished.

For the original question, just give me free juice at existing rest stops or other destinations
My payment will be in cleaner air for the rest to breathe and more oil left for the other vehicles
 
OK, back OT. :roll:

Sorry, I was not totally clear. I am making an assumption that daily L1 and L2 charging will typically be done at home. I was thinking of design/programming of "place" more along the lines of a travelers public Energy Station. It would likely have proximity to a major roadway. Ex - I have relatives in Bakersfield and would love to take an EV. It might make sense to locate L3 chargers at the base of climbs and along ascents. Downhills are regenerative so likely not so many Stations needed on that side of the hwy. While stopped for about half an hour, what would make this a pleasant necessity (before Lithium Air arrives)? Marketing and business's do read forums and this is the information they really come looking for. Lets give them some ideas to ponder.
 
Yes, nice, clean, inviting places to recharge would be GREAT!

I fondly recall the very clean German "rest stops" in the late 1970's, with resturants over the autobahn, for easy access from either side, and a lot of food to chose from.
 
A fellow named Angus Clark was in my group at the SD Leaf Tour event, and his company, Evoasis, is engaged in just the kind of "clean sheet" thinking about public charging stations being discussed here. Check out their website: http://www.evoasis.com/about-us/. From what he told me, they are concentrating on a CA coastal network of 100 stations first, to be deployed by 2013, that will work on a "membership" business model (without government subsidy like Ecotality) and supply L3 recharges @ $.09/kwh while offering a pleasant, upscale "lounge/internet cafe/convenience store" experience while you wait. It will be interesting to see how this idea develops.

BTW, he said they are having their L3 chargers built in China for ~$6K ea., which is the cheapest price I have ever heard of for them.

TT
 
ttweed said:
Check out their website: http://www.evoasis.com/about-us/. From what he told me, they are concentrating on a CA coastal network of 100 stations first, to be deployed by 2013, that will work on a "membership" business model (without government subsidy like Ecotality) and supply L3 recharges @ $.09/kwh while offering a pleasant, upscale "lounge/internet cafe/convenience store" experience while you wait. It will be interesting to see how this idea develops.
Click to expand...
Interesting. I think there are multiple groups trying this. The question really is - how well are they funded ?

BTW, he said they are having their L3 chargers built in China for ~$6K ea., which is the cheapest price I have ever heard of for them.
Click to expand...
So, they could have many of these in a station - the bulk of the investment will be infrastructure, land, builind etc instead of chargers.
 
evnow said:
So, they could have many of these in a station - the bulk of the investment will be infrastructure, land, builind etc instead of chargers.
Click to expand...

But I think we are barking up the wrong tree (or electricity pole! ;) ) if we make this into something very special and which needs a lot of infrastructure.

Instead, chargingstations could very easily be put up along existing highway rest-areas, restaurants, "KFC" and all the rest.

Of course, a park-like site would be very welcome, but for the day to day driving, the chargers should be distributed to supermarkeds, restaurants, fastfood-places, banks, etc etc. That's where they are needed.
 
Norway said:
But I think we are barking up the wrong tree (or electricity pole! ;) ) if we make this into something very special and which needs a lot of infrastructure.

Instead, chargingstations could very easily be put up along existing highway rest-areas, restaurants, "KFC" and all the rest.

Of course, a park-like site would be very welcome, but for the day to day driving, the chargers should be distributed to supermarkeds, restaurants, fastfood-places, banks, etc etc. That's where they are needed.
Click to expand...

I think we are going to have both these options competing. Those who want to own the whole thing and look at it as an investment opportunity will build upscale Charging Lounges. There will also be those who use existing land and collaborate with the landlord in some kind of profit sharing arrangements (like ChargeAmerica).

But in both the cases you need special electrical infrastructure to pull in the 3 phase power (or atleast upgrade the service).

EV Project guys were saying they are finding it difficult to convince land lords to let them put up chargers for free !
 
I have often thought that the "final" solution for EV charging will be home based. In the end, we will ALL have L3 charging, Lithium Air batteries and EV's with a range of 300-600+ miles. At this future point, EV's might go unplugged for days before being quickly topped off for a road trip. HOWEVER, we are not there yet, so public charging will be a necessary stepping stone. As ranges increase and L2 in our garages become common, there will not be a huge demand for charging within neighborhoods and at local businesses. Public Charging will be mostly utilized by travelers and commuters racking up alot of highway miles. In some ways, we must avoid thinking like Generals preparing to fight our previous wars, as in.... the reason there are so many gas stations in the landscape is simply due to the fact that people cannot fuel their gas cars from home! Therefore, it will become a very different experience, special even, for us to actually go and get L3 charges at dedicated public facilities.

The Architecture, Landscape Architecture and Industrial Design opportunities of such green facilities is profoundly exciting to people in the design professions. An early goal of design for these all new facilities will be the creation of an "ICONIC IDENTITY"! Not to get too cerebral but these EV facilities should communicate positive and unique aspects of how they are used, function and powered. If we capitalize on the clean advantages of EV's, we can completely flip how the public thinks of "Gas Station". In the future "Gas Stations" will completely suck by comparison! Lets start showing how much they suck right now!!! Think about it - There is absolutely no reason why EV Stations cannot be completely enclosed buildings - there are NO exhausts or oils to deal with! EV Stations could be as comfortable as driving into large living room lofts and offer a far superior experience particularly in cold or rainy climates. Also, EV parking garages will no longer need to be isolated, open structures but can be deeply integrated within the fabric of new buildings.... advantages go on and on. Sorry for the futurist ramble but just very excited about the fundamental changes that are coming. :ugeek:

BTW - Thank you for that "oasis" link, I have added myself to their newsletter.
 
i think simple works fine. i really dont care. most charging stations should be in parking lots and i hope that eventually we will have a multitudes of options allowing us opportunity charging everywhere we go
 
TRONZ said:
I have often thought that the "final" solution for EV charging will be home based. In the end, we will ALL have L3 charging, Lithium Air batteries and EV's with a range of 300-600+ miles. At this future point, EV's might go unplugged for days before being quickly topped off for a road trip. HOWEVER, we are not there yet, so public charging will be a necessary stepping stone. As ranges increase and L2 in our garages become common, there will not be a huge demand for charging within neighborhoods and at local businesses. Public Charging will be mostly utilized by travelers and commuters racking up alot of highway miles. In some ways, we must avoid thinking like Generals preparing to fight our previous wars, as in.... the reason there are so many gas stations in the landscape is simply due to the fact that people cannot fuel their gas cars from home! Therefore, it will become a very different experience, special even, for us to actually go and get L3 charges at dedicated public facilities.

The Architecture, Landscape Architecture and Industrial Design opportunities of such green facilities is profoundly exciting to people in the design professions. An early goal of design for these all new facilities will be the creation of an "ICONIC IDENTITY"! Not to get too cerebral but these EV facilities should communicate positive and unique aspects of how they are used, function and powered. If we capitalize on the clean advantages of EV's, we can completely flip how the public thinks of "Gas Station". In the future "Gas Stations" will completely suck by comparison! Lets start showing how much they suck right now!!! Think about it - There is absolutely no reason why EV Stations cannot be completely enclosed buildings - there are NO exhausts or oils to deal with! EV Stations could be as comfortable as driving into large living room lofts and offer a far superior experience particularly in cold or rainy climates. Also, EV parking garages will no longer need to be isolated, open structures but can be deeply integrated within the fabric of new buildings.... advantages go on and on. Sorry for the futurist ramble but just very excited about the fundamental changes that are coming. :ugeek:

BTW - Thank you for that "oasis" link, I have added myself to their newsletter.
Click to expand...

Hi Tronz,

I appreciate that, and I think it is good that you are exited, and think of new things.

However, what I want to point out is that you are, in fact, in my opinion, not thinking differently enough. (I've driven an EV for years.) What happens is not that the "garages change", but that they become obsolete. You need an enormous infrastructure for filling ICE-cars, because of the danger. Thus, you have a filling station, (the focus) and then restaurants etc built around them.

EV charging need a minimal infrastructure (a wire, and a charger (where this is not in the car already, like in Europe)) so the focus is no longer the "filling station", but whatever you like to do, and then you fill at the same time. Because the "filling station" for an EV can be everywhere. It is just a different way of thinking, and a different focus.

I like your ideas of a Green Oasis. It is nice, but it is nice independent of whether I need to charge my EV-car or not. So, I might come you your Green Oasis AND charge my car, rather come to your Green Oasis TO charge my car. And even ICE drivers might like your Green Oasis too!
 
Norway said:
EV charging need a minimal infrastructure (a wire, and a charger (where this is not in the car already, like in Europe)) so the focus is no longer the "filling station", but whatever you like to do, and then you fill at the same time. Because the "filling station" for an EV can be everywhere. It is just a different way of thinking, and a different focus.
Click to expand...

The problem is the "wire" is not sufficient. in the US the normal wire brings in L1 level charging (120V) that is wholly insufficient. So, at a minimum we need L2 charging that needs extra wiring, panel changes etc.

But L3, which is really what is useful, needs 480V 3 phase supply. That is a large investment for anyone who already doesn't get that kind of power from the utility.

But, the chargers themselfs will never return anything on investment. Just like the gas stations. So, they need to be used to attract people who spend on other things that actually make money ...
 
evnow said:
Norway said:
EV charging need a minimal infrastructure (a wire, and a charger (where this is not in the car already, like in Europe)) so the focus is no longer the "filling station", but whatever you like to do, and then you fill at the same time. Because the "filling station" for an EV can be everywhere. It is just a different way of thinking, and a different focus.
Click to expand...

The problem is the "wire" is not sufficient. in the US the normal wire brings in L1 level charging (120V) that is wholly insufficient. So, at a minimum we need L2 charging that needs extra wiring, panel changes etc.

But L3, which is really what is useful, needs 480V 3 phase supply. That is a large investment for anyone who already doesn't get that kind of power from the utility.

But, the chargers themselfs will never return anything on investment. Just like the gas stations. So, they need to be used to attract people who spend on other things that actually make money ...
Click to expand...

I agree this is true for highway stations, where there is nothing to do but to charge while you find something to eat, and visit the restrooms.

However, for non-intercity travelling, I think you would slow-charge while you are at work, at a restaurant, at the mall, at the cinema. For me, with more than enough charging points available, I don't park - I "park and charge", so my EV is almost always near fully charged. Even the hospitals here have EV charge points.
 

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