Nissan Battery Pack Warranty Details

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EVDRIVER

Well-known member
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Apr 24, 2010
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I'm starting this thread thread because of some of the recent Nissan comments about the pack warranty being related to motor output matching and not pack capacity as well as the fact that Nissan has yet to provide any details on the specifics of the warranty. A warranty of any length and time is meaningless without specific coverage details and this is something that can have a significant impact on the purchasing decision for many.

Relating the warranty to the ability to provide full output to the motor is useless. One could easily get full motor output out of a pack with 50% capacity or less. So that would mean that if your pack has 50% capacity in two years and can produce full output then it's fine and not covered under warranty. That's snake oil in the EV world.

Everyone should expect the pack to loose some capacity over time but the question is how much is reasonable and what will number will Nissan guarantee and under what conditions? The reason this is important is one should have some confidence in knowing what their estimated range should be after X number of years. Estimates and guidelines are not really helpful when one goes to a dealer after three years and expects 80% and they are getting 70% and the useful range of the vehicle is no longer applicable to that buyer. Capacity is easy to check and I'm sure those that drive 70 miles RT with a buffer may want to know if after three years they may not be able to make that trip. There needs to be some hard marker of capacity otherwise the warranty can be 200K miles and 20 years and it still will be useless.

All this can be a moot point soon but the issue is they posted no details when the car was ordered and this is a bit unusual. As a long time EV driver and builder I know how to extend pack life and what I can accept but many consumers may be in for a big shock and disappointment unless they have some specific guideline as to what their range numbers will be in a few years. If the warranty has no capacity guarantee and is tied to an ambiguous power output then that's a definite deal breaker. If there is one thing about EVs, just one that everyone should focus on, it's the pack warranty regardless if they lease or buy because the range is what is going to change, not to mention resale value.

I hope Nissan can stand behind their pack technology claims with a warranty that demonstrates their product confidence because what they are stating lately is not very confidence inspiring and very generic. It's easy to impress buyers with long warranty numbers after a survey but if it's all marketing fluff it's not going to fly. Let's see some good faith here Nissan as the EV world has seen far too many battery promises in the last 10 years and they all have turned up short on life and capacity.
 
What are the warranty details for the Volt? I am quite sure it will be similar if not identical. Also, anyone know what the details are for the warranty of the Rav4-EV or Tesla batteries? That would be good for comparison purposes.
 
I suspect by "output" they also mean how long it could achieve full output on a full charge. They have implied all along that the Leaf will be warranted for something like 70% of original range after 8 years/100,000 miles. So for whatever reason they don't want to directly guarantee the batteries, I suspect the end result of the warranty will be basically the same. But I'm an optimistic sort. Really hope Nissan will come forward and clarify the matter soon!
 
johnr said:
I suspect by "output" they also mean how long it could achieve full output on a full charge. They have implied all along that the Leaf will be warranted for something like 70% of original range after 8 years/100,000 miles. So for whatever reason they don't want to directly guarantee the batteries, I suspect the end result of the warranty will be basically the same. But I'm an optimistic sort. Really hope Nissan will come forward and clarify the matter soon!


That's funny! what is the original range? 100 miles? under what conditions? One can't measure by that standard in any accurate or fair way. Capacity is a definitive measure since everyones range will vary. If capacity is 70% at 8/100 then that seems great if guaranteed. As long as there is a capacity number in the warranty then one can make a decision on that, and hopefully there is no pro-rating. There is a shunt/etc. on every EV that is highly accurate to measure AH/KWH in and out, one can tell exactly how many KWH are used from a full charge.
 
The devil's in the details with the terms of this warranty. Even though i'm probably looking to lease, i still want to know nissan stands behind their battery. It's odd they haven't been more forward with this as it would be a great marketing tool to assuage people's fears. I think chevy has done a better marketing job in this regard w/ the volt. They've really promoted their stress testing. I prefer the leaf but the details of this warranty will tell me a lot about how much confidence i should have in this car.

Hopefully people will keep pressure on Nissan to disclose/ decide on this information.

edit: interesting that in Europe the battery warranty is only 5 years. i assume the Volt warranty compelled them to match here in the states:

"We're being promised that 80 percent of that maximum capacity will still be available after five years, which coincidentally happens to be the length of Nissan's warranty for the EV parts in the Leaf. Notably, that's significantly less than the eight-year pledge made to American buyers, though the only answer we were given was that they are "different markets" and therefore the offering is different."

http://www.engadget.com/2010/10/26/nissan-leaf-launches-in-europe-takes-us-for-a-drive/
 
jtk said:
The devil's in the details with the terms of this warranty. Even though i'm probably looking to lease, i still want to know nissan stands behind their battery. It's odd they haven't been more forward with this as it would be a great marketing tool to assuage people's fears. I think chevy has done a better marketing job in this regard w/ the volt. They've really promoted their stress testing. I prefer the leaf but the details of this warranty will tell me a lot about how much confidence i should have in this car.

Hopefully people will keep pressure on Nissan to disclose/ decide on this information.


Agreed, I also feel they have buried it in the enthusiasm of the Launch, if more attention were put on this they would have to address this better. Most consumers don;t have a clue on battery tech and many early buyers would buy in denial of the warranty because they want to have the car so badly, I have seen this again and again with many EV buyers that ignore or deny the realities of battery packs because they want to believe it will be fine or "trust" in the statements made by suppliers. Yes, the devil is in the details and the press and consumers don;t have a clue what details to look into. If you have a solid and highly tested pack that is very reliable in manufacturing then you know exactly what statements you can make and market with confidence. I'm not seeing that now and I think Nissan is seeing how they can mitigate their liability. This is a key factor to auto makers, they are not charity organizations.
 
you can't compare the battery warranty of the Volt to the Leaf, that's like comparing apple and oranges.

The Volt is NOT an EV, it's a PHEV/EREV(bogus). The Volt has a 16KW battery, of which they use just 8KW (%50), they "baby" that battery, the same way Toyota does with the Prius, only using very little of the total SOC (State Of Charge).

http://www.alternative-energy-news.info/new-battery-warranty-chevy-volt/

Nope, the Leaf's battery will be under much more stress than the Volt.

As for the Tesla, you can't compare that warranty either, it's just 3 years/36K (expected to last 7 years, 100K).... they will "presell" you a replacement for a low of only $12K, because they know it's going to be trouble, and are banking on a less expensive replacement to be availble in 7 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster


"Battery system

Tesla Motors refers to the Roadster's battery pack as the Energy Storage System or ESS. The ESS contains 6,831 lithium ion cells arranged into 11 "sheets" connected in series; each sheet contains 9 "bricks" connected in series; each "brick" contains 69 cells connected in parallel (11S 9S 69P). The cells are 18 mm (0.71 in) in diameter and 65 mm (2.6 in) long (18650 form-factor); this type of lithium-ion cell is also found in most laptop computer batteries. The pack is designed to prevent catastrophic cell failures from propagating to adjacent cells, even when the cooling system is off. Coolant is pumped continuously through the ESS both when the car is running and when the car is turned off if the pack retains more than a 90% charge. The coolant pump draws 146 watts.[85][86][87][27][88]

A full recharge of the battery system requires 3½ hours using the High Power Connector which supplies 70 amp, 240 volt electricity; in practice, recharge cycles usually start from a partially charged state and require less time. A fully charged ESS stores approximately 53 kWh of electrical energy at a nominal 375 volts and weighs 992 lb (450 kg). [89]

Tesla Motors stated in February 2009 that the current replacement cost of the ESS is slightly under USD$36,000, with an expected life span of 7 years/100,000 mi (160,000 km), and began offering owners an option to pre-purchase a battery replacement for USD$12,000 today with the replacement to be delivered after seven years. The ESS is expected to retain 70% capacity after 5 years and 50,000 miles (80,000 km) of driving (10,000 miles (16,000 km) driven each year). Tesla Motors provides a 3 year/36,000 mile warranty on the Roadster with an optional 4 year/50,000 mile extended warranty available at an "additional cost" (2008 Roadster buyers received the 4/50 extension at no cost while later purchasers need to pay). A non-ESS warranty extension is available for USD$5,000 and adds another 3/36 to the coverage of components, excluding the ESS, for a total of 6 years/72,000 mi (120,000 km).[90][91]"
 
I don't see why we can't compare the warranty of the Volt and the LEAF. After all, they have the same 8yr/100K miles. Nissan itself compared the LEAF to the Volt. Like it or not, people will compare the two even when one is a hybrid and one is an EV. If the Volt has better warranty details than the LEAF, people will take notice and will be all over the internet. This is a business decision for Nissan, and they have to get it right the first time. The average joe won't know a thing about one battery being stressed out and the other receiving lots of TLC.
 
mitch672 said:
you can't compare the battery warranty of the Volt to the Leaf, that's like comparing apple and oranges.

The Volt is NOT an EV, it's a PHEV/EREV(bogus). The Volt has a 16KW battery, of which they use just 8KW (%50), they "baby" that battery, the same way Toyota does with the Prius, only using very little of the total SOC (State Of Charge).
....

fyi they apparently use 10.4 kwh not 8kwh. http://gm-volt.com/2010/10/26/chevrolet-volt-will-utilize-10-4-kwh-of-battery-to-achieve-ev-range/

so i guess that's 65% for the volt versus 80% for the leaf?

As for the crux of your post, fine that may be a valid point; however, it doesn't really address the point of the thread which is that some greater transparency from Nissan re: the battery warranty would be helpful. As the leaf battery will be stressed much more than the volt battery (as you say) then it is simply that much more desirable to have a full disclosure on the terms to which they are willing to warranty the battery (a proxy for their confidence in its durability).

cheers!
 
I wouldn't count on leasing as any protection against that either. If you lease and Nissan determines you've "abused" the batteries, I'm sure there will be a penalty charge. But really Nissan is not going to be stupid and pull a fast one on their customers when so much is at stake. Let's not get all worked up over it without knowing the details. Speaking of details, any time now, I'm waiting Nissan...
 
Here is the quote that set off this controversy.
Nissan knows that the Leaf's batteries will degrade over time, which is why the warranty says that, after the eight years, drivers should expect about a 70 percent performance level compared to the original pack.

Perry also said that, while unlikely, anyone who fast charges (at 440V) two or three times a day, something the Leaf manual will warn against, will see a quicker degradation.

The warranty is not related to battery capacity. The warranty is related to motor output. So if the battery has degraded to a point where the motor can't get enough power from the battery, then it's a warrantable event.

But if someone abuses the battery – parks it outside in 140 degrees and all that - and they have 60 percent capacity after eight years, that's on them. They abused it.

Perry says that fast-charging your Leaf multiple times a day will not be considered abuse.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/22/2011-nissan-leaf-review-drive-second/

I guess my question is, are we going to see a listing of what is considered abuse? Fast charging will degrade the pack faster than not, but it is not abuse. We should expect to see 70 performance level after 8 years. What does he mean by this? Did he mean 70% of original capacity or 70% of original power or 30% increase in 0-60 time (performance). The quote opened up far more questions than it answered. I really hope Nissan is working to answer this warranty question right away. The devil is in the details and this quote, and the word choices in it, opens up a whole lot of questions.

I suspect he meant that we will see 70% of original battery capacity after 8 years. The warranty will probably not kick in unless we are down to 60% capacity. This is worse than I expected. I thought that it would be to expect 80% capacity after 8 years and the warranty will start to kick in at levels below 70%

There is (should be) a separate section of the warranty for power output, and the warranty should begin to kick in if we see any power output issues below 90% of the stated power in my opinion.

This is all speculation on my part, and I look forward to seeing Nissan's response to this warranty issue.
 
palmermd said:
Here is the quote that set off this controversy.
Nissan knows that the Leaf's batteries will degrade over time, which is why the warranty says that, after the eight years, drivers should expect about a 70 percent performance level compared to the original pack.

Perry also said that, while unlikely, anyone who fast charges (at 440V) two or three times a day, something the Leaf manual will warn against, will see a quicker degradation.

The warranty is not related to battery capacity. The warranty is related to motor output. So if the battery has degraded to a point where the motor can't get enough power from the battery, then it's a warrantable event.

But if someone abuses the battery – parks it outside in 140 degrees and all that - and they have 60 percent capacity after eight years, that's on them. They abused it.

Perry says that fast-charging your Leaf multiple times a day will not be considered abuse.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/10/22/2011-nissan-leaf-review-drive-second/

I guess my question is, are we going to see a listing of what is considered abuse? Fast charging will degrade the pack faster than not, but it is not abuse. We should expect to see 70 performance level after 8 years. What does he mean by this? Did he mean 70% capacity reduction or 70% power reduction or 30% increase in 0-60 time (performance). The quote opened up far more questions than it answered. I really hope Nissan is working to answer this warranty question right away. The devil is in the details and this quote, and the word choices in it, opens up a whole lot of questions.

I suspect he meant that we will see a 70% reduction in battery capacity after 8 years. The warranty will probably not kick in unless we are down to 60% capacity. This is worse than I expected. I thought that it would be to expect 80% capacity after 8 years and the warranty will start to kick in at levels below 70%

There is (should be) a separate section of the warranty for power output, and the warranty should begin to kick in if we see any power output issues below 90% of the stated power in my opinion.

This is all speculation on my part, and I look forward to seeing Nissan's response to this warranty issue.


I think you meant a 30% reduction, 70% reduction in capacity would be horrible. The bottom line is that if the warranty does not cover a capacity guarantee and a power performance guarantee in some way it's useless. One could have 60% pack capacity after 2 years or 80% after five but have very poor performance. I would bet that many people out there don't understand voltage sag and power output, if the pack weakens driving with a pack at 50% could be a painful experience. I'm assuming all of this with L1 or L2 charging.
 
Can't find the warranty info on the Leaf site as described by Perry, I get this:

"We expect the battery to have a lifespan of 5-10 years. Like any battery, usage and age will lead to a gradual loss of capacity which will impact your driving range."
 
EVDRIVER said:
I think you meant a 30% reduction, 70% reduction in capacity would be horrible. The bottom line is that if the warranty does not cover a capacity guarantee and a power performance guarantee in some way it's useless. One could have 60% pack capacity after 2 years or 80% after five but have very poor performance. I would bet that many people out there don't understand voltage sag and power output, if the pack weakens driving with a pack at 50% could be a painful experience. I'm assuming all of this with L1 or L2 charging.

Correct, I fixed my comment to reflect what I meant and what you understood. Hopefully this type of error is what has caused all this controversy, just a simple typing error on the part of the reporter in regards to the numbers and the word choices.
 
Nissan Leaf site warranty info:
Q
What kind of warranty will this car have?
A
Nissan North America has recently informed consumers that the Nissan LEAF Basic Warranty Coverage is 36 months/36,000 miles. The Powertrain Coverage is 60 months/60,000 miles. The Lithium-ion Battery Coverage is 96 months/100,000 miles.

No other information regarding what triggers a warrantable replacement/event anywhere on the net as far as I can see. Did that survey we took a while back have any projected capacity or power loss in the questions?
 
palmermd said:
Nissan Leaf site warranty info:
Q
What kind of warranty will this car have?
A
Nissan North America has recently informed consumers that the Nissan LEAF Basic Warranty Coverage is 36 months/36,000 miles. The Powertrain Coverage is 60 months/60,000 miles. The Lithium-ion Battery Coverage is 96 months/100,000 miles.

No other information regarding what triggers a warrantable replacement/event anywhere on the net as far as I can see. Did that survey we took a while back have any projected capacity or power loss in the questions?


Great, then after 7 years I can get a new pack if the car does not do 100 miles:)
 
I agree that what Mark Perry was quoted as saying asks more questions than it answers, and that what Nissan will consider to be 'abuse' needs to be defined.

This has also got me to wondering - once 'abuse' has been defined how can it be determined whether or not abuse has occured? Many warranties exclude damage due to abuse, and whether or not abuse has occured is often a subjective matter determined by circumstantial evidence. (A seller will argue that if there's been a failure it must have been caused by abuse, a buyer will swear on his mother's grave that the car was only driven for short distances at low speeds to go to church on Sundays.)

I wonder if the Leaf's electronics will be collecting and storing information such as how often and how frequently fast charging has been used? (I agree that fast charging would not be abuse if done only rarely, but a traveling saleman who fast charges several times daily as he cruises the interstates covering his multi-state territory? I know, extreme example, such a person is not a good candidate for an EV, but you get the point.) Ambient temperatures that the vehicle has experienced, how often and for how long? What else might be important information, and easy to obtain and store with appropriate sensors?

palmermd said:
...

I guess my question is, are we going to see a listing of what is considered abuse? Fast charging will degrade the pack faster than not, but it is not abuse. We should expect to see 70 performance level after 8 years. What does he mean by this? Did he mean 70% of original capacity or 70% of original power or 30% increase in 0-60 time (performance). The quote opened up far more questions than it answered.

...
 
The Leaf is a computer on wheels, you can assume they log EVERYTHING they can measure in one or more of the cars ECUs, for retrieval later at a dealership, or perhaps it is even uploaded via the radio link.
 
I suspect that you're right. Pursuing warranty claims could be interesting.

mitch672 said:
The Leaf is a computer on wheels, you can assume they log EVERYTHING they can measure in one or more of the cars ECUs, for retrieval later at a dealership, or perhaps it is even uploaded via the radio link.
 
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