Logistics of building out a charging infrastructure

Maybe I'm jumping the gun here, but as an apartment dweller, I've been giving this some thought.

Nissan has suggested that someone in my situation could opt to find a public charging station (presumably L3) nearby. But this seems like a stopgap solution at best. Even if there were public charging bays available that could handle a dozen or so vehicles at once, it's not hard to imagine that it would only be a matter of time until the wait for an open charging dock would become agonizingly long, given a 30-minute 'refueling' time.

This in turn leads me to believe that the widespread adoption of electric cars will ultimately depend on everyone who drives one being able to charge at a location where they spend the most time, i.e. at home or at work.

Is this making any sense to you guys?

What would a resident be willing to pay monthly to have a reserved parking spot with a 16a evse and free electric?

smkettner said:

What would a resident be willing to pay monthly to have a reserved parking spot with a 16a evse and free electric?

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Good question... and/or what would a resident be willing to pay to have said charging dock installed? In any case, I plan to broach the subject to my landlord in due course.

Last week I was at a workshop in an European standardization organization, and one of the items discussed was an international (in Europe) standard for charging, and for charging (in Euro (money)) for it. For example, if you live in Netherland, how do you pay for charging your car in Germany.

In Norway all charging points are free, so it is not an issue yet. (They can supply 3.6 kW.)

smkettner said:

What would a resident be willing to pay monthly to have a reserved parking spot with a 16a evse and free electric?

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Assuming 1,000 miles per month, I'd have to use about 250 kwh. That is about $35 a month.

For an ICE car that gives 25 mpg, I'd need 40 gallons or $120.

So, If I were renting I'd be willing to pay upto $100 - if the charging dock was free. If I have to pay for installing the dock - I'd pay $50 to $75.

evnow said:

smkettner said:

What would a resident be willing to pay monthly to have a reserved parking spot with a 16a evse and free electric?

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Assuming 1,000 miles per month, I'd have to use about 250 kwh. That is about $35 a month.

For an ICE car that gives 25 mpg, I'd need 40 gallons or $120.

So, If I were renting I'd be willing to pay upto $100 - if the charging dock was free. If I have to pay for installing the dock - I'd pay $50 to $75.

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As it happens, I drive just under 10,000 miles per year... just slightly lower than your example. This would be fine by me. Now to get the landlord to go along with this.

Aside from offering to pay for an install out of my own pocket, are there any financial incentives being offered to owners of apartment complexes?

BetaMark said:

Aside from offering to pay for an install out of my own pocket, are there any financial incentives being offered to owners of apartment complexes?

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They will get the usual 50% off (and a much higher limit). They can also possibly depreciate the EVSE every year.

evnow said:

BetaMark said:

Aside from offering to pay for an install out of my own pocket, are there any financial incentives being offered to owners of apartment complexes?

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They will get the usual 50% off (and a much higher limit). They can also possibly depreciate the EVSE every year.

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What do you think my chances would be to qualify for the ECOtatlity EV Project (I just submitted their online form)? I understand they will provide you with a free charger and pay for most if not the entire install, in return for providing them with data on your charging and driving habits.

BetaMark said:

What do you think my chances would be to qualify for the ECOtatlity EV Project (I just submitted their online form)? I understand they will provide you with a free charger and pay for most if not the entire install, in return for providing them with data on your charging and driving habits.

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The initial online application terminated when you checked the box saying that you are a renter. I guess ECOtality must be considering apartment dwellers now. The guy from Sunwest who did my assessment mentioned that he evaluated someone who was renting.

BruinLEAFer said:

BetaMark said:

What do you think my chances would be to qualify for the ECOtatlity EV Project (I just submitted their online form)? I understand they will provide you with a free charger and pay for most if not the entire install, in return for providing them with data on your charging and driving habits.

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The initial online application terminated when you checked the box saying that you are a renter.

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Uh, there was no such check box that I recall.

Betmark, what community are you located in? It may depend if they have their quota filled. What is the date you can order?

stanley said:

Betmark, what community are you located in? It may depend if they have their quota filled. What is the date you can order?

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I live in Van Nuys, in the San Fernando Valley. Truth be told, I it'll be about 12 months before I plan to purchase. My apologies if I'm jumping the gun, but given the potential complexity of the situation, I figured it would be best to start the ball rolling now.

BetaMark said:

BruinLEAFer said:

BetaMark said:

What do you think my chances would be to qualify for the ECOtatlity EV Project (I just submitted their online form)? I understand they will provide you with a free charger and pay for most if not the entire install, in return for providing them with data on your charging and driving habits.

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The initial online application terminated when you checked the box saying that you are a renter.

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Uh, there was no such check box that I recall.

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When you initially reserve a Nissan LEAF and list an eligible area as your residence, you are asked if you want to be involved:

A home charging system is recommended for use with the Nissan LEAF™. You may qualify to receive this unit and its installation free of charge as part of the EV Project, which is funded by the US Department of Energy (DOE). Electric Transportation Engineering Corporation (eTec) is providing project management for this project and will select the project participants based on several factors.

This is a limited time offer. If you are interested in participating in the EV Project, please click Apply below to complete eTec’s Residential Prospect Questionnaire. If you are not interested in participating, please click Decline.

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Selecting "Apply" would send you to the eTec web page and the first question was this:

About Your Residence

1. Do you own or rent the residence where the LEAF™ EVSE will be installed? --Own --Rent

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Selecting "Rent" would have resulted in this response:

We’re sorry. You must own the property to be considered for The EV Project. Installation costs and owner acceptance requirements are beyond the budget and time constraints of this Project. You may still enjoy your ownership of the LEAF and thus do your part to encourage the adoption of Electric Vehicles in the United States.

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They may have changed the questions since then so that renters can apply. When did you reserve your LEAF?

1. Do you own or rent the residence where the LEAF™ EVSE will be installed? --Own --Rent
Selecting "Rent" would have resulted in this response:

We’re sorry. You must own the property to be considered for The EV Project. Installation costs and owner acceptance requirements are beyond the budget and time constraints of this Project. You may still enjoy your ownership of the LEAF and thus do your part to encourage the adoption of Electric Vehicles in the United States.

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They may have changed the questions since then so that renters can apply. When did you reserve your LEAF?

The difference may be in that I didn't go to the Nissan site; I went to the EV Project site:

http://www.theevproject.com/sign-up.php

After answering a few questions, none of which included renting versus owning, the process ended with a prompt that I must first reserve a Leaf in order to qualify.

Yes, and that's the "catch 22", if Nissan won't let you reserve the Leaf, due to being a renter, then the EV Project won't consider you. They only have so much money, and are trying to maximize the # of installs they get for the money, they don't have the resources to put into complex installations.

mitch672 said:

if Nissan won't let you reserve the Leaf, due to being a renter

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I rent, and Nissan let me reserve a LEAF. They said my parking space may not be optimal, but they let me reserve the LEAF, anyway.

My parking space will be fine; there's a 60A dedicated feed to the detached "garage" (now converted to a home office) and my landlord says "no problem" to putting in a 20A two-pole breaker and a (most likely) Leviton 16A EVSE.

It would be even nicer to put in a 16A 250V (blue) Euro-style IEC 60309 jack on the wall and buy the version of the charger which will be included with European LEAFs, but that's probably not allowed in the US, as it is probably considered a "level 2" charger by the NEC and as such must be "fastened" to the wall even when it is not required to be hardwired.

In any event, if I build a portable 240V charging system, I'll likely use IEC 60309 connectors for the adapter cables and the extensions; they're rugged, locking, and waterproof.

tps, my reply was in regard to the other poster getting a free EVSE as part of the EV Project. I have no doubts about being able to buy a Leaf if you live in an apartment, but just try to get the EV Project to install a free L2 EVSE, they are just not interested.

How about a prewired rental house? Or would the resident need a three year lease also?

mitch672 said:

Yes, and that's the "catch 22", if Nissan won't let you reserve the Leaf, due to being a renter, then the EV Project won't consider you. They only have so much money, and are trying to maximize the # of installs they get for the money, they don't have the resources to put into complex installations.

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If the DOE and auto makers are serious about creating a viable EV infrastructure, they're going to have to tackle the issue (thorny though it may be) of getting charging docks into apartment complexes... especially in California, which is supposed to be Ground Zero for reducing the carbon footprint of motor vehicles. Otherwise, about half of all drivers will be left burning fossil fuels.

In any case, I just popped the question to my landlord. Interestingly, one of his questions was whether the install of charging docks was becoming a government requirement. I of course told him no, the best I could offer was that there are tax incentives for doing an install. He's going to run this by the property owners and then get back to me. Stay tuned!

BetaMark said:

If the DOE and auto makers are serious about creating a viable EV infrastructure, they're going to have to tackle the issue (thorny though it may be) of getting charging docks into apartment complexes... especially in California, which is supposed to be Ground Zero for reducing the carbon footprint of motor vehicles. Otherwise, about half of all drivers will be left burning fossil fuels.

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Well, you have to be exaggerating a bit if you are claiming that half of all California housing units are apartments. According to the Census Bureau, 58% of all housing units in the state are owner-occupied. Of course I guess that would include condos, but on the other hand it would not include single-family rental homes or most duplexes.

I must say, though, that I was really surprised by the number. Having lived in suburbia most of my life I would have guessed that 80% or more of California families lived in single-family homes, owned or rented, in addition to others in duplexes, which would work just as well for EVs. I now realize how wrong my assumptions must be!