Cor
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:33 pm

So, luckily I have a great Dealer (I never go to a dealer unless I need something special that I can't get anywhere else)
and the local senior tech mentioned that he had seen this behavior before, apparently it happens when a
non-cold weather HV battery gets installed into a car that has the cold weather package.
Still totally weird that installing a battery without battery heaters will cause the car to indefinitely charge the 12v battery to 14.4V
but that is what is happening.
Indeed, I had a warranty replacement 2017 battery with model nr 295B09RB9D in this car and swapped it with a 2011 battery with model nr 295B03NA0A. The car has cold weather package (steering wheel and seat warmers) and apparently this old battery is not the cold weather package type, so the car does wonky things. Now I need to find out how I can change it back to normal. Probably need to reprogram something in the LBC memory to make it think it has a cold weather package and everything is fine and to let the car sleep.
Hmmm, I can read and program the LBC, but where to find *what* exactly I need to write...

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Marktm
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Delivery Date: 09 Jan 2016
Leaf Number: 022737

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:25 am

Cor wrote:So, luckily I have a great Dealer (I never go to a dealer unless I need something special that I can't get anywhere else)
and the local senior tech mentioned that he had seen this behavior before, apparently it happens when a
non-cold weather HV battery gets installed into a car that has the cold weather package.
Still totally weird that installing a battery without battery heaters will cause the car to indefinitely charge the 12v battery to 14.4V
but that is what is happening.
Indeed, I had a warranty replacement 2017 battery with model nr 295B09RB9D in this car and swapped it with a 2011 battery with model nr 295B03NA0A. The car has cold weather package (steering wheel and seat warmers) and apparently this old battery is not the cold weather package type, so the car does wonky things. Now I need to find out how I can change it back to normal. Probably need to reprogram something in the LBC memory to make it think it has a cold weather package and everything is fine and to let the car sleep.
Hmmm, I can read and program the LBC, but where to find *what* exactly I need to write...


Cor;
Have you tried pulling the three (12v) fuses that feed the heaters? Have no idea if this might work, in fact likely not if their is actual differences in firmware - but so simple to try it might be worth it for a short term fix. The three fuses are located and described in ops manual Section PG pages 16-19.
2012 Leaf SL; 36,000 miles. Battery replaced November 1st, 2016.
Rural cabin with 6750 watts Grid tied PV. Off-grid solar Leaf charging capable (level II).

Cor
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:16 am

Marktm wrote:Have you tried pulling the three (12v) fuses that feed the heaters? Have no idea if this might work, in fact likely not if their is actual differences in firmware - but so simple to try it might be worth it for a short term fix. The three fuses are located and described in ops manual Section PG pages 16-19.

You mean the seat and steering wheel heaters?
Do you expect that the car auto-detects the cold weather package by the fact that it sense the presence of the heaters (current draw when turned on)? I don't think that is what the car should do - I expect that it is configured with cold weather as option,
but it can't hurt to try and see if it makes a difference.
If all else fails, I will have to install a cold-weather configured LBC into the battery pack, so the car thinks that everything is fine again - even while there are no actual battery heaters... I still expect that there is a message that the car is expecting an answer to but is not getting from the LBC, something like inquiring if the battery heaters are engaged, because the relay for the HV to the heaters is drawing 12V, so that is the reason for the car to turn the 12V DC/DC converter on (and the water pumps for cooling) giving almost 300W draw from the main pack, causing the loss of approx 1 mile of range each hour. It is a fail-safe of the car to avoid the 12V battery to die while the battery heaters are on, but the result is now a continuous drain on the main pack, indefinitely.
I will try pulling the fuses and else I will see if I have an LBC that the car agrees with. I was hoping that it could easily be reprogrammed.
Oh well, I know how to drop the pack, it is just a couple hours work.

Cor
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:02 pm

Marktm wrote:Have you tried pulling the three (12v) fuses that feed the heaters? Have no idea if this might work, in fact likely not if their is actual differences in firmware - but so simple to try it might be worth it for a short term fix. The three fuses are located and described in ops manual Section PG pages 16-19.

Hi Mark,
I went ahead and pulled the fuses anyway (fuses 8,10 and 17 on the panel in the driver door dashboard side)
and then pulled the 12V battery terminal to make sure everything would start up from scratch.
Since the car was providing 14.4V to the battery, the car continued to be powered until I started and then powered down the Leaf, so it died before it was able to re-start the battery charging.
After waiting a minute, I re-attached the battery terminal and the car booted - without starting the battery charging, Jay!
Then I started the car and powered it down again - and the battery charging re-started.....
Ah, so - the pulling of the 3 fuses does nothing to convince the car to act as if it does not have cold weather package.
I noticed one other odd thing:
When the car is fully charged and stops charging with the J1772 connector still plugged in, the charging station continues to show that the car is pulling down the pilot signal to keep providing AC power, while the blue LEDs have turned off, only the 3rd LED is blinking to indicate the car is charging the 12V battery, but nothing indicates that the car is still taking AC power from the charger, just that the pilot signal is keeping the charger "on"...

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12311
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:02 am

Cor wrote:This morning, the 3rd light was still blinking and the car had lost another 12 miles of range overnight (12 hrs), so I plugged it in and will visit the dealer later today.
I noticed that when I plug it in to charge, the aux battery voltage goes to 13.10V. When I unplug, the 3rd LED starts blinking again and the aux battery voltage goes to 14.42V. Totally weird.


Interesting. For the first time on my 2016, I saw the 12 volt charging light blinking as well. don't know how long it was blinking before I saw it and had gassed it that day so the car had sat at least 36ish hours or so but when I went to check on it less than 5 mins later the it was no longer on. So I either caught the tail end of the cycle or the cycle is simply not that long.
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cor
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
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Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:13 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Cor wrote:This morning, the 3rd light was still blinking and the car had lost another 12 miles of range overnight (12 hrs), so I plugged it in and will visit the dealer later today.
I noticed that when I plug it in to charge, the aux battery voltage goes to 13.10V. When I unplug, the 3rd LED starts blinking again and the aux battery voltage goes to 14.42V. Totally weird.


Interesting. For the first time on my 2016, I saw the 12 volt charging light blinking as well. don't know how long it was blinking before I saw it and had gassed it that day so the car had sat at least 36ish hours or so but when I went to check on it less than 5 mins later the it was no longer on. So I either caught the tail end of the cycle or the cycle is simply not that long.

Dave,
Correct - the cycle is supposed to be short and the 12V Battery is supposed to only be charged when it has sat a longtime (5 days is what I have heard) or when it is cold (below -20F is what I read) as the battery heaters require all contactors to be engaged, so it draws quite a bit of power from the 12V battery, so the car also engages the DC/DC converter to recharge the 12V battery and then also has to engage the water pump to keep the DC/DC converter cooled. Battery heating only continues until the battery temp has risen from -20 to -10F and if the charge level of the HV battery gets too low, it will no longer warm the battery to preserve the charge in the battery.
Since my battery controller is not equipped for cold weather package, it apparently does not reply the correct info on the car's request, so the car goes to a fail-safe mode to keep the 12V battery charged, but does so continuously instead of intelligently.
I looked at another LBC that I had lying around and it is equipped with the contacts for the battery heater control and the transistor TR28 on the circuit board in the LBC to drive the heater relay coil. So, maybe I should install this LBC instead in my battery and then get it re-programmed again. I would still like to know what the difference is between the two LBCs, but I can't trace that out without disabling the car for another day and I would also hate to find out that it is simply a bit to be set in the configuration in the LBC memory and that is all there is to it... Rather not pay another $160 for minimum service charge to the local dealer for another attempt at registering yet another LBC, just to find out that one *also* has the wrong configuration. I rather find a confirmed good LBC from a battery with cold weather package and then take that one to the dealer to make sure it is 100% good right off the bat.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 12311
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Contact: Website

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:15 am

Cor wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Cor wrote:This morning, the 3rd light was still blinking and the car had lost another 12 miles of range overnight (12 hrs), so I plugged it in and will visit the dealer later today.
I noticed that when I plug it in to charge, the aux battery voltage goes to 13.10V. When I unplug, the 3rd LED starts blinking again and the aux battery voltage goes to 14.42V. Totally weird.


Interesting. For the first time on my 2016, I saw the 12 volt charging light blinking as well. don't know how long it was blinking before I saw it and had gassed it that day so the car had sat at least 36ish hours or so but when I went to check on it less than 5 mins later the it was no longer on. So I either caught the tail end of the cycle or the cycle is simply not that long.

Dave,
Correct - the cycle is supposed to be short and the 12V Battery is supposed to only be charged when it has sat a longtime (5 days is what I have heard) or when it is cold (below -20F is what I read) as the battery heaters require all contactors to be engaged, so it draws quite a bit of power from the 12V battery, so the car also engages the DC/DC converter to recharge the 12V battery and then also has to engage the water pump to keep the DC/DC converter cooled. Battery heating only continues until the battery temp has risen from -20 to -10F and if the charge level of the HV battery gets too low, it will no longer warm the battery to preserve the charge in the battery.
Since my battery controller is not equipped for cold weather package, it apparently does not reply the correct info on the car's request, so the car goes to a fail-safe mode to keep the 12V battery charged, but does so continuously instead of intelligently.
I looked at another LBC that I had lying around and it is equipped with the contacts for the battery heater control and the transistor TR28 on the circuit board in the LBC to drive the heater relay coil. So, maybe I should install this LBC instead in my battery and then get it re-programmed again. I would still like to know what the difference is between the two LBCs, but I can't trace that out without disabling the car for another day and I would also hate to find out that it is simply a bit to be set in the configuration in the LBC memory and that is all there is to it... Rather not pay another $160 for minimum service charge to the local dealer for another attempt at registering yet another LBC, just to find out that one *also* has the wrong configuration. I rather find a confirmed good LBC from a battery with cold weather package and then take that one to the dealer to make sure it is 100% good right off the bat.


Well, hate to burst your bubble, but my car didn't do any of that. Maybe we have evidence Nissan has "finally" addressed this issue?
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 27,000 miles.363GID Ahr 79.13Hx95.17%kwh28.1QCs238,L2's 251
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Cor
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
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Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:46 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:Well, hate to burst your bubble, but my car didn't do any of that. Maybe we have evidence Nissan has "finally" addressed this issue?

Dave,
Not sure that I am getting what you try to say.
My 2012 is failing to stay in shutdown, because it gets no or the wrong response when it inquires of the BMS (LBC) if the battery heater was turned on, so it decides that out of safety, it will start charging the 12V battery as *if* the battery heaters are on, since they need 12V to keep the HV contactors pulled in.
Anyway, I am trying to remedy the situation by swapping the LBC for a version from a battery with heaters, even though there are no heaters in this battery. But the only thing the LBC is interested in is to be able to read back the heater control signal, so I will make sure that there is a jump wire to be able to read it back.
So, this morning I bit the bullet and dropped the pack, opened the shell and removed the LBC. Tonight I will attempt to copy the memory into the LBC from a cold weather package car and hope that will resolve the problem.
Reason to copy the memory configuration is to avoid another $160 service charge at the dealer to re-program the car to recognise this LBC.
To be continued.

Cor
Posts: 158
Joined: Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:53 am
Delivery Date: 07 Jul 2015

Re: Solutions to 12 Volt Batteries and Chargers Posted Here

Wed Jul 12, 2017 2:14 pm

OK, it looks like the saga has concluded today, regarding my 2012 with cold weather package that I swapped in a battery without heaters and as a result, the car was constantly charging the 12V battery, due to the (old) BMS (LBC) not answering the car's inquiries about whether the heaters were on or not, resulting in the car not knowing if the heater relays were draining the 12V battery and thus it turning on the DC/DC converter permanently.

I found an LBC from a late 2011 or 2012 which has the battery heater control integrated into the LBC and a relay in the pack (early 2011 and some 2013 have a 3rd plug on the exterior of the battery case, so the car can turn the heaters on, but this is unnecessary complex to route the power from outside back into the battery for the heaters, as the battery already has this power internally, so why not avoid the 3rd plug and simply have a small relay inside the battery case?)
Anyway, I tried to load the memory configuration of the old LBC (which was programmed to the car) into the new LBC, but apparently with adding the code for the heater control, the memory configuration has changed, so the car still did not accept this LBC. I tried a few times with different areas copied over the original cold-weather LBC configuration, but since each iteration meant a lot of work, including hoisting the pack up to the car to plug it in under the car, I soon gave up, put the original cold weather LBC configuration back into it, bolted the battery case shut and installed it again in the car, put the covers on and this morning I drove at a leisurely 25 MPH to the dealer to once more register the battery to this car, but now with the correct LBC type.
After a couple minutes on the Consult computer the car registered the battery and everything was OK.
The tech asked me how I made sure that this was a cold weather package LBC, so I explained that I had opened the LBC, verified that it had the correct circuits (compared to the non-cold-weather LBC which used the same circuit board, but which did not have the components placed for the heater relay control and sensing.
I also added a jumper to feed back the control output to the sensing input, as I saw on the schematic of the cold weather battery and I added a small resistor between the pins where the relay coil would connect, so that even without the relay present, the LBC would still "see" something connected.
And indeed, the car is now happy as a clam, no more error messages, no more 12V battery charging, sucking down the HV battery. Only thing that still needs to self-adjust is the range indication, since this LBC is from a newish battery or its statistics have been erased, so that it is now considering that it has a new battery and needs to re-learn the capacity of the actual battery.
It is great timing, as I just picked up a battery today that needs to go into the next Leaf. I think I will stick with swapping module stacks this time just to be on the safe side...

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