smkettner
Posts: 7205
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:13 pm
Delivery Date: 26 Feb 2014
Location: Orange County, CA

Re: How long 'til 4th bar drops?

Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:45 pm

No worries. The 4th dropped a few weeks ago. That last heat wave in So Cal did it in for sure.

New battery already installed. I do hope this new chemistry holds up better for him.

My RAV4 just turned 21,000 miles with what seems like 5% or less in capacity loss.
At this point on LEAF I was down the first bar or about 15%.
1 bar lost at 21,451 miles, 16 months.
2 bar lost at 35,339 miles, 25 months.
LEAF traded at 45,400 miles for a RAV4-EV
I-Pace on order for end of 2018 delivery

gemrough
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:12 pm
Delivery Date: 17 Sep 2015

Re: How long 'til 4th bar drops?

Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:47 am

Why does everyone rush to the dealer as soon as the battery looses the 8th bar? Seems like you would want to hold out as long as possible on the new battery. What if they come out with a slightly better battery chemistry a few months after you get your replacement. Especially since they are working on something with a lot more range for 2017.... which most likely means it is already done and testing.

I can understand if you truly need the range.

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TomT
Posts: 10611
Joined: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:09 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Mar 2011
Leaf Number: 000360
Location: California, now Georgia
Contact: Website

Re: How long 'til 4th bar drops?

Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:56 am

A number of reasons: They are already near the limit of the warranty period (I was within 17 miles), they need the extra range for the car to be practical again, or they realize that it will be quite some time, if ever, before any new chemistry beyond the Lizard trickles down to the replacement batteries...

gemrough wrote:Why does everyone rush to the dealer as soon as the battery looses the 8th bar?
59,991 miles/12 bars/289 Gids/68.54 AHr/101% SOH/101.64% Hx 7May15 w/ new Lizard (barely made the warranty).
71,770 miles/12 bars/256 Gids/59.04 AHr/88% SOH/87.92% Hx 3Mar16 at lease return.

Now driving a 2016 Volt Premier.

gemrough
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Sep 16, 2015 5:12 pm
Delivery Date: 17 Sep 2015

Re: How long 'til 4th bar drops?

Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:25 am

I understand if you are near warranty limit (mileage or time) but if you had another 8k miles left and/or 10 months. What would be the rush. Also seems like it would be fairly easy to get the car battery to deteriorate faster if one wanted...

kolmstead
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:07 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 000257
Location: Ridgecrest, California (100 miles east of Bakersfield)

Re: How long 'til 4th bar drops?

Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:54 am

It seems like it should be easy, but that isn't necessarily so. In CA this summer, we've had much lower temps than usual. I was pretty sure that one more summer would do the job for me, but summer's over, and that ninth bar clings stubbornly.

Many of the proposed schemes actually have very little effect. Just running the battery down using A/C or heat does little. Yes, you can add a few charge/discharge cycles that way, but cycling causes relatively minor degradation. Heat is number one, and calendar aging is probably number two. To get the battery hot, you need two things... high ambient temps and hard use or lots of quick charging. If I had a QC port, and the nearest charger weren't 84 miles away, I'd try that.

After I complete my normal commute, my car only has about 4 kWh left, and that'll be shrinking as soon as I start using the heater this winter. So I'm pretty much stuck without enough energy left to heat up the battery.

I'm also convinced that capacity bar loss is inhibited by the car's firmware in cooler weather to prevent false indications due to temporary capacity loss caused by low battery temperature. My car lost the tenth bar this past April, even though the Ahr reading was low enough to qualify clear back
in October. I am afraid that the same thing will happen this fall/winter, and my warranty expires in January.

To top it off, we do not know exactly what triggers loss of the ninth bar. Judging from the bell-shaped distribution we see (peak of the bell-shaped curve is around 43.3 Ahr), a number of factors enter in. It's not just a simple Ahr or GID value; there's more to it than that. Some speculate that the car must remain below some capacity level for a prolonged period like 30 or 60 days. I think the battery needs to stay above some critical temperature for some time in order to permit bar loss. It's difficult to hit a target that is undefined...

Valdemar
Posts: 2504
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: How long 'til 4th bar drops?

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:18 am

I've seen 42.8ahr a couple of times, the 9th bar is still there, probably for not much longer. I did lose #10 in February this year, so CA winters are probably not cold enough to inhibit capacity loss calcs.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB), -1CB(53.92Ahr)@140k/29mo,
53.92AHr, SOH 84.5%, 140k miles

9kW Solar

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keydiver
Posts: 1080
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2011 1:04 pm
Delivery Date: 08 Dec 2011
Leaf Number: 16484
Location: Hobe Sound, Florida
Contact: Website

Re: How long 'til 4th bar drops?

Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:55 pm

gemrough wrote:Why does everyone rush to the dealer as soon as the battery looses the 8th bar? Seems like you would want to hold out as long as possible on the new battery.


Since I have the Tesla now, I'm going to *try* to hold out as long as possible before getting the new battery. I need to lose at least another 2 AHr, so I may not lose my 9th bar for several months, since summer is almost over here. I'm hoping that there is always the possibility Nissan will change their minds on the 30 kWh upgrade, or there might be another chemistry change next year that would be to my advantage.
2012 Glacier Pearl SL - Delivered December 8, 2011
10kW Solar PV for recharging!
2006 Prius with Hymotion 5kWh PHEV upgrade
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kolmstead
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:07 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 000257
Location: Ridgecrest, California (100 miles east of Bakersfield)

Re: How long 'til 4th bar drops?

Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:36 pm

To gemrough: If my ninth bar dropped right now, I'd wait until I was sure that the hot weather was done before I got the battery replaced. I can squeeze about 60 miles out of the car running all the way to turtle. Limiting it to VLBW, a safer margin, cuts that by about 5 miles.

Once it gets cold, range is going to drop to 40-45 miles. My commute is 36. A quick trip to Home Depot adds 5 miles. Not a comfortable reserve. Running out of battery on the way home when it's dark and windy and cold is not on my list of fun things.

Then there's the almost unimaginable luxury of having full range again. Charging to 80% and having range left over after my commute. Driving the Leaf to the retirement home in the mountains we're fixing up. Using the climate control timer to pre-warm the car in the morning instead of having to manually turn on the heat an hour early. Not having to haul the car to and from the dealer on a flatbed. You know, the good old days...

-Karl (65.6%)

GregH
Posts: 860
Joined: Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:16 pm
Delivery Date: 13 Jun 2011
Leaf Number: 26967
Location: Irvine, CA

Re: How long 'til 4th bar drops?

Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:56 pm

kolmstead wrote:To top it off, we do not know exactly what triggers loss of the ninth bar. Judging from the bell-shaped distribution we see (peak of the bell-shaped curve is around 43.3 Ahr), a number of factors enter in. It's not just a simple Ahr or GID value; there's more to it than that. Some speculate that the car must remain below some capacity level for a prolonged period like 30 or 60 days. I think the battery needs to stay above some critical temperature for some time in order to permit bar loss. It's difficult to hit a target that is undefined...


True.. My guess is that time@temp drives the Ahr calculation but temp probably doesn't factor into the bar loss..
Time@AhrCap or #cycles@AhrCap or #miles@AhrCap probably more likely to factor into bar loss.. It would be interesting to see the daily values (average temp, mileage, AhrCap) for various people for the weeks leading up to the 4th bar loss... That could be illuminating..
If it turns out to be cycle based then just take a bunch or really short drives when you get down to 43.5Ahr or so ;)
'17 blue Volt Premier w/ACC
'12 SL black Leaf
'11 SL blue Leaf
RAV4-EV 2002-2005
Gen1 & Gen2 EV1 1997-2003
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TimLee
Posts: 2811
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:40 am
Delivery Date: 17 May 2011
Leaf Number: 2026
Location: Chattanooga, TN

Re: How long 'til 4th bar drops?

Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:11 pm

+10 on what kolmstead stated.

My capacity loss was probably fast that first summer of 2011.
Hottest TN summer in two decades.
104F high several days in a row.

But the following summers have been much more average.
Did 168 DCQC while they were working and free.

Currently none working within driving range.

I have lost three bars, but with AHr having recovered to 47 with cooling weather and with Nissan's poor capacity warranty running out on May 17, pretty unlikely I lose bar four in time.

Nothing easy about getting appropriate compensation under Nissan's warranty.

Tim Lee
Chattanooga, TN

Man. Date: 03/10/11, VIN # 2026
Delivered 05-17-2011
Blue Ocean, 2011 SL-eTec

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