LeftieBiker
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Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:54 pm

You won't be able to get a 30kwh battery - you'll have to settle for a 24kwh Lizard pack.
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

Valdemar
Posts: 2419
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
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Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Wed Feb 08, 2017 2:39 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:You won't be able to get a 30kwh battery - you'll have to settle for a 24kwh Lizard pack.


A waiting game may pay off...
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

alozzy
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Delivery Date: 18 Jan 2017
Location: Vancouver, BC
Contact: Website

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:06 pm

Vancouver, CA owner of a 2013 Ocean Blue SV + QC, purchased 01/2017 in WA
Zencar 12/20/24/30A L1/L2 portable EVSE
1-1/4" Curt #11396 hitch
After market, DIY LED DRLs
LeafSpy Pro + Konnwei KW902 ELM327 BT OBDII dongle
Loving my first BEV :D

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
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Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Wed Feb 08, 2017 5:46 pm



From the article: "We should reiterate at this point that what we’ve just said is our own theory"

Once Nissan runs out of refurbished 24kwh packs for warranty repairs, I wonder if they'll be forced to make the 30kwh work with the 2013-2015 leafs (the 2011-2012 will probably be out of warranty by that time)?
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs
26 Oct 2017 - 15.5k miles & 344 GIDs
26 Nov 2017 - 17.1k miles & 332 GIDs]

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IssacZachary
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Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:00 pm

The EV speculation game has been going on for over 100 years ever since it was the first type of car to do over 100kph/mile-per-minute.

Will Nissan step up to the plate? Will an aftermarket company do it? Will battery technology advance to the point you can upgrade to over double the capacity for a lot less the price?

I'm sure that if someone really wanted a 30kW Leaf for cheap they'd find a wrecked one for a few grand and transfer over all the necessary parts to their 24kWh Leaf.
2013 SL 50,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

ElectricEddy
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Leaf Number: 313506
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Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:30 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:


From the article: "We should reiterate at this point that what we’ve just said is our own theory"

Once Nissan runs out of refurbished 24kwh packs for warranty repairs, I wonder if they'll be forced to make the 30kwh work with the 2013-2015 leafs (the 2011-2012 will probably be out of warranty by that time)?

My guess is they will celll/module replace to bring specs above 8 bars.
Pearl White Sl
mfd date 09/16

VitaminJ
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Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:22 pm



I posted this in another thread:

This doesn't make sense to me. They state that the 24kwh and 30kwh batteries are physically the same dimensions and fit in the same shape hole in the chassis, ok so the 30kwh will "bolt in" to an early car question answered.

They state that the reason it cannot actually be used with the 24kwh Leaf is because the BMS will have to be different. Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the BMS inside the sealed battery module with the cells and an independent system from the rest of the car?

And if it's not then shouldn't that just be a matter of also changing out the BMS? Of course Nissan does not want to be bound to spend any more money on warranty replacements than needed, so I would not expect them to state the batteries are interchangeable publicly. I also know Nissan is not stupid and they would not completely re-design the Leaf for a mid-gen battery upgrade so the changes must be modular and most likely minor. For instance when you swap engines in a car you usually also swap the ECU. Maybe you will also need to change the motor controller or something else but it's almost certainly not "impossible."

The software unlock is most likely the biggest hurdle to the whole thing and that is just a matter of time until it's either in the public domain or licensed to a 3rd party/done as a service.

None of us will know until an independent Leaf specialist gets ahold of the first wrecked 30kwh Leaf, which probably won't be long!

ElectricEddy wrote:My guess is they will celll/module replace to bring specs above 8 bars.

That seems like the most labor-intensive route Nissan can take. Instead, they could remove the intact battery pack from the car and send it to the factory to be mass-recycled with other batteries and then take a new pack off the assembly line and ship it to the dealer to bolt in. What you're saying would require special training at every dealership, training auto mechanics to work on high voltage lithium batteries and electronics, troubleshoot problem cells, and then reassemble and re-seal the pack as good as factory new. That would be like Nissan machining and rebuilding an engine in a Titan pickup truck instead of getting a crate motor from the factory.
2013 Ocean Blue SV w/ QC and LED
- +0.2 mi/kwh Aeromods
- 2lb 5Ah LiFe 12v battery

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
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Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:50 pm

VitaminJ wrote:
ElectricEddy wrote:My guess is they will celll/module replace to bring specs above 8 bars.

That seems like the most labor-intensive route Nissan can take. Instead, they could remove the intact battery pack from the car and send it to the factory to be mass-recycled with other batteries and then take a new pack off the assembly line and ship it to the dealer to bolt in. What you're saying would require special training at every dealership, training auto mechanics to work on high voltage lithium batteries and electronics, troubleshoot problem cells, and then reassemble and re-seal the pack as good as factory new. That would be like Nissan machining and rebuilding an engine in a Titan pickup truck instead of getting a crate motor from the factory.


I think ElectricEddy meant that Nissan can keep the supply of refurbished 24kwh up by "repairing" the bad batteries they get back as part of the core-exchange. So then it's simply a question of how long that supply will last?
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs
26 Oct 2017 - 15.5k miles & 344 GIDs
26 Nov 2017 - 17.1k miles & 332 GIDs]

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IssacZachary
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Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:05 pm

I'm under the impression that Leaf battery cells tend to "wear out" or degrade consistently throughout the whole pack. I'd find it hard to believe that there'd be traction batteries with 12 bar cells and 8 bar cells in the same battery. As far as I understand the whole battery is a wear item. When one cell is at 8 bars, so to speak, the others aren't far behind in degradation. It's not like a motor or engine that you can replace the bearings and couple other wear items and get it refurbished like new.

Ya, it would be cool if you could take two bad batteries, pick out all the good cells or modules and make one good battery out of the two. But I don't see it happening.
2013 SL 50,000 miles.
12 bars until 44,300 miles on June 2, 2017. :D
11 bars current. :)
The Nissan Leaf is the fourth best long distance car for highway driving. >>Best Long Distance Cars<<

Valdemar
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Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Wed Feb 08, 2017 11:48 pm

IssacZachary wrote:I'm under the impression that Leaf battery cells tend to "wear out" or degrade consistently throughout the whole pack. I'd find it hard to believe that there'd be traction batteries with 12 bar cells and 8 bar cells in the same battery. As far as I understand the whole battery is a wear item. When one cell is at 8 bars, so to speak, the others aren't far behind in degradation. It's not like a motor or engine that you can replace the bearings and couple other wear items and get it refurbished like new.


Yes and no. Do not forget they are only obligated to bring the battery to 9 bars per the warranty terms. Battery capacity is determined by the weakest module as there is no active balancing in the Leaf. The weakest modules tend to be in the middle of the big/long assembly that goes under the back seat. The battery that just dipped below 9 bars likely has half of its modules good for 9 or maybe even 10 bars. This is likely one of the reasons why they chose 9 bars and not 10 for the refurb battery promise under capacity warranty as they could easily make a 9-bar battery from 2 8-bar ones.

But they also offer new batteries for purchase, so if they stop making 24kWh ones they'd have to make sure the 30kWh ones can be fitted in old cars. On the other hand, there is only a handful of people who buy batteries out of pocket, so they can just say sorry, you're SOL, the battery is no longer available for your car.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

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