LeftieBiker
Posts: 7170
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 31 May 2013
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:47 am

I had just taken the leaf on its first trip to disneyland and back.


Was it hot at Disneyland?
2013 "Brilliant Silver" SV with Premium Package and no QC, and 2009 Vectrix VX-1 with 18 Leaf cells.

The most offensive, tasteless phrase in use here is "Pulled the trigger." I no longer respond to posts that use it.

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:04 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:
I had just taken the leaf on its first trip to disneyland and back.


Was it hot at Disneyland?


I don't recall, since we have some mild spring-like June's occasionally. Probably not, since the worst summer heat is between August and October.

Edit: just remembered that we had a parking pass that year, so I parked in the "goofy" parking garage.
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs
26 Oct 2017 - 15.5k miles & 344 GIDs]

DaveinOlyWA
Gold Member
Posts: 12232
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 10 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:00 pm

Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
As I wasn't expecting to lose SOH that time, I measured it afterwards and saw a 2% overnight drop in SOH. After a few days of rebalancing the pack, I got 1% back, but not the full 2%. I never left the car parked overnight below 20% ever again.


Do you have updated LEAF Spy stats? Your pack is not following the curve of others in your build time frame AND you live in a pretty warm area


Unfortunately no, that was my 2013 leaf S (built in Sept and bought in Oct 2013), which I turned in last year. That 2% drop happened in summer 2014. I had just taken the leaf on its first trip to disneyland and back. It was returned with ~79% battery health @ 45,000 miles, so it would've lost its fourth bar ~10,000 miles outside the warranty period.

My 2016 leaf S (current stats in the signature) is experiencing better degradation rate (~94% battery health @ 15,000 miles).


the 2016 is what I was referring to
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 (build 10/2016)"low water marks" 26,100.2 miles.363GID Ahr 79.55Hx95.35%kwh28.1QCs227,L2's 237
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:19 pm

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Oils4AsphaultOnly wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:
Do you have updated LEAF Spy stats? Your pack is not following the curve of others in your build time frame AND you live in a pretty warm area


Unfortunately no, that was my 2013 leaf S (built in Sept and bought in Oct 2013), which I turned in last year. That 2% drop happened in summer 2014. I had just taken the leaf on its first trip to disneyland and back. It was returned with ~79% battery health @ 45,000 miles, so it would've lost its fourth bar ~10,000 miles outside the warranty period.

My 2016 leaf S (current stats in the signature) is experiencing better degradation rate (~94% battery health @ 15,000 miles).


the 2016 is what I was referring to


After that SOH incident, I've never left either car parked at under 20% SOC ever again. I've driven my 2016 to VLBW, but have always charged it back up to at least 25% (even at peak TOU rates of $0.35/kWh), before re-enabling the charge timer.

So I haven't seen a 2% overnight SOH drop with my 2016 leaf.

Edit: just realized you're probably referring to my signature! Will update it soon.
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs
26 Oct 2017 - 15.5k miles & 344 GIDs]

User avatar
drees
Moderator
Posts: 6202
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:30 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:sitting at low SOC will degrade the pack but people here won't believe you unless you can post a study (as if they were some sort of unassailable truth... :lol: )

As if your random halfway anecdotal thoughts are any better? Such as "80*" being a magic temperature where capacity loss due to "heat" occurs. In reality, it's all relative and the rate of capacity loss over time varies approximately with Arrhenius' equation - a 10C rise in temperature will double the rate of capacity loss. Storage at a low SOC is not the same as cycling the pack across a wide SOC range. Cycling a pack across a wider range of capacity will accelerate the rate of capacity loss.

But you have to remember that cycling tests of batteries are highly accelerated and don't accurately represent conditions in real life where there is a lot of time spent between each cycle. Also, it's really hard to find any controlled data where the same depth of discharge is performed at different average SOCs. I would bet that cycling a pack between 10-50% SOC would be very different than 50-90%, for example.

Yes, if you drain the pack to turtle and let it sit for months, you may find a way to accelerate capacity loss. But in reality, the BMS disables the pack around 3.0V on the lowest cell-pair, which while being pretty low, is not low enough to do any real damage to the cells once there in short term storage. No, I would not recommend leaving the pack with cells at that voltage for for any extended period of time, but for a couple days, no big deal.

SeasonsAfter wrote:My nissan leaf is close to the warranty replacement date but I don't think I can get there with my leaf spy stats. Any suggestions? I have four months before the warranty expires.

AHr 47.47

I live in San Diego so it doesn't get too cold in the winter and run the hell out of it for the warranty but am afraid to kill the battery after the warranty period. I tried to call nissan's leaf line and they indicate you are shit out of luck if you don't get that 4th bar lost. No assistance on battery from my calls.

In October 2015 I was around 47.5 AHr with 9 bars showing. I didn't drop to 8 bars for about 10 months, August 2016 with 43.3 AHr. Take that with a grain of salt since I have a 2011, but the 2013 appears to be pretty similar. So unfortunately, I think you're out of luck getting your car to drop that last capacity bar in 4 months.

How long ago did you drop to 9 capacity bars?
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

SeasonsAfter
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:25 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Feb 2015

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:09 am

I know, with my numbers I don't think I will be able to get that last bar to drop in the four months time the warranty is still intact. San Diego has been hot recently so I am hoping to make use of the heat as best as possible. Too bad I couldn't get the battery pack with full sun the entire day...ha

My 9th bar loss happened awhile back but I didn't record this date. I think it happened last year so maybe I am in luck? ha

I took the leaf into the dealership over the weekend to get the battery check done. Wow, was that a waste of money. $67 to tell me my SOC is 71%...wow, I could have told you that...

Didn't get much from the Nissan folks other than 5 stars on battery. One Nissan guy (intake) said some customers can get 10% of a new battery at some point. When I pressed him on how this works, he didn't explain further. Basically he told me to drive it hard and hopefully the bar will drop.

Looking for anyone with any suggestions at this point. Being friendly with Nissan doesn't get you much. I figure they want that warranty to expire on you so they don't have to buy a new pack.

My current numbers from yesterday's full charge.

33k on ODO
1/13 manufacture date
in service date 2/21/2013
AHr- 46.94
SOH 71%
HX 65.09%
204 GIDs max
72.6% GIDs
SOC 97%
2013 Leaf
9 of 12 bars remaining (waiting for that 4th bar drop)
manufacture date 1/2013
in service date 2/21/2013
AHr 46.94
SOH 71%
Hx 65.09%
33k on ODO
204 GIDs on full charge

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:26 am

SeasonsAfter wrote:I know, with my numbers I don't think I will be able to get that last bar to drop in the four months time the warranty is still intact. San Diego has been hot recently so I am hoping to make use of the heat as best as possible. Too bad I couldn't get the battery pack with full sun the entire day...ha

My 9th bar loss happened awhile back but I didn't record this date. I think it happened last year so maybe I am in luck? ha

I took the leaf into the dealership over the weekend to get the battery check done. Wow, was that a waste of money. $67 to tell me my SOC is 71%...wow, I could have told you that...

Didn't get much from the Nissan folks other than 5 stars on battery. One Nissan guy (intake) said some customers can get 10% of a new battery at some point. When I pressed him on how this works, he didn't explain further. Basically he told me to drive it hard and hopefully the bar will drop.

Looking for anyone with any suggestions at this point. Being friendly with Nissan doesn't get you much. I figure they want that warranty to expire on you so they don't have to buy a new pack.

My current numbers from yesterday's full charge.

33k on ODO
1/13 manufacture date
in service date 2/21/2013
AHr- 46.94
SOH 71%
HX 65.09%
204 GIDs max
72.6% GIDs
SOC 97%


That actually looks promising!

Now you didn't hear this from me, but IF you have a full day available, locate a chademo station near a mall/desired-destination, charge to 100% the night before, wait until 10am, and drive until you reach the chademo station with 30% charge, then charge to 100% and leave it parked under the sun for the afternoon (preferably over black asphalt). Would love to see your leafspy stats in the morning and after the chademo charge! Remember, you didn't hear from anyone, it just happened that your day went that way!
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs
26 Oct 2017 - 15.5k miles & 344 GIDs]

SeasonsAfter
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:25 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Feb 2015

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Mon Oct 30, 2017 10:35 am

My 2013 doesn't have a quick charging outlet. I am only charging level 2 at my home so try to keep the car fully charged with it plugged in.

I try to fully charge the leaf and then take a long trip (A/C full blast, heater seats on High, steering wheel heat on) to turtle mode.

Mirrors on the ground of the car to get some extra sun pointing directly to the battery pack?

Still with these numbers, I think the only way I can get a replacement is if I take it to AZ or Palm Springs to bask in the sun as much as possible. Someone in AZ or Palm Springs that can help me out on my project? ha
2013 Leaf
9 of 12 bars remaining (waiting for that 4th bar drop)
manufacture date 1/2013
in service date 2/21/2013
AHr 46.94
SOH 71%
Hx 65.09%
33k on ODO
204 GIDs on full charge

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 269
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:05 pm

SeasonsAfter wrote:My 2013 doesn't have a quick charging outlet. I am only charging level 2 at my home so try to keep the car fully charged with it plugged in.

I try to fully charge the leaf and then take a long trip (A/C full blast, heater seats on High, steering wheel heat on) to turtle mode.

Mirrors on the ground of the car to get some extra sun pointing directly to the battery pack?

Still with these numbers, I think the only way I can get a replacement is if I take it to AZ or Palm Springs to bask in the sun as much as possible. Someone in AZ or Palm Springs that can help me out on my project? ha


DOH!!

Although, that mirrors-on-the-ground idea's a pretty good one. Just need ALOT of mirrors - think Ivanpah!
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs
26 Oct 2017 - 15.5k miles & 344 GIDs]

SeasonsAfter
Posts: 18
Joined: Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:25 pm
Delivery Date: 21 Feb 2015

Re: 2013 Leaf bar loss.

Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:35 pm

Yeah, the mirror idea was mine! Although my wife thinks I am taking this to a whole different level...ha
2013 Leaf
9 of 12 bars remaining (waiting for that 4th bar drop)
manufacture date 1/2013
in service date 2/21/2013
AHr 46.94
SOH 71%
Hx 65.09%
33k on ODO
204 GIDs on full charge

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