tkdbrusco
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Gids, AHR, Bar drop estimates?

Mon Feb 22, 2016 3:38 pm

Does anyone have a chart that details the specifics for when various cars drop their bars at specific AHR and Max Gids levels? Since the 11/12, 13/14. and 15 cars have slightly different batteries, I'm wondering if there's different charts for this. To the best of my knowledge there haven't been many 3+ bar losers on 13 cars, and I don't think there's been any bar losers yet on 15 cars.

Part of this is for my own predictions on my 2015 car (I'm at 58Ahr and 273 max Gids right now with 25K miles) and part of this is for me to advise customers who own other models or are thinking to buy used leafs.

Thanks
2015 Leaf S w/QC Package. San Jose, CA
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bigbearballs
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Location: Austin, TX

Re: Gids, AHR, Bar drop estimates?

Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:03 am

tkdbrusco wrote:Does anyone have a chart that details the specifics for when various cars drop their bars at specific AHR and Max Gids levels? Since the 11/12, 13/14. and 15 cars have slightly different batteries, I'm wondering if there's different charts for this. To the best of my knowledge there haven't been many 3+ bar losers on 13 cars, and I don't think there's been any bar losers yet on 15 cars.

Part of this is for my own predictions on my 2015 car (I'm at 58Ahr and 273 max Gids right now with 25K miles) and part of this is for me to advise customers who own other models or are thinking to buy used leafs.

Thanks


You are getting those data points when your car is at a full charge?

dhanson865
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Re: Gids, AHR, Bar drop estimates?

Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:49 am

AHr starts out in the 60s, leafspy assumes 66.25 AHr for a new pack. The table below is just collected guesswork from all the threads on this forum about people losing bars. Don't consider it accurate, just something to compare to.

Loss of bar 12 - between 53.75 AHr and 56 AHr
Loss of bar 11 - between 49.75 AHr and 52 AHr
Loss of bar 10 - between 45.75 AHr and 48 AHr
Loss of bar 9 - between 41.75 AHr and 44 AHr

I don't pay attention to GIDs

All the 24 kWh packs regardless of year have been losing bars at the same AHr levels. 30 kWh packs will have a different table.
2012 Leaf tires 195/65/15 Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S, 15" Rims
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
(leaf range chart)
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

tkdbrusco
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Re: Gids, AHR, Bar drop estimates?

Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:20 pm

bigbearballs wrote:
tkdbrusco wrote:Does anyone have a chart that details the specifics for when various cars drop their bars at specific AHR and Max Gids levels? Since the 11/12, 13/14. and 15 cars have slightly different batteries, I'm wondering if there's different charts for this. To the best of my knowledge there haven't been many 3+ bar losers on 13 cars, and I don't think there's been any bar losers yet on 15 cars.

Part of this is for my own predictions on my 2015 car (I'm at 58Ahr and 273 max Gids right now with 25K miles) and part of this is for me to advise customers who own other models or are thinking to buy used leafs.

Thanks


You are getting those data points when your car is at a full charge?


Yes. When at 100% charge.
2015 Leaf S w/QC Package. San Jose, CA
www.theevconsultant.com

tkdbrusco
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Re: Gids, AHR, Bar drop estimates?

Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:21 pm

dhanson865 wrote:AHr starts out in the 60s, leafspy assumes 66.25 AHr for a new pack. The table below is just collected guesswork from all the threads on this forum about people losing bars. Don't consider it accurate, just something to compare to.

Loss of bar 12 - between 53.75 AHr and 56 AHr
Loss of bar 11 - between 49.75 AHr and 52 AHr
Loss of bar 10 - between 45.75 AHr and 48 AHr
Loss of bar 9 - between 41.75 AHr and 44 AHr

I don't pay attention to GIDs

All the 24 kWh packs regardless of year have been losing bars at the same AHr levels. 30 kWh packs will have a different table.


This may be true for 11-14 packs, but do we even have a 2015 with a lost bar yet? How do we know they are the same? They are the first year to start with 292 Gids.
2015 Leaf S w/QC Package. San Jose, CA
www.theevconsultant.com

dhanson865
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Re: Gids, AHR, Bar drop estimates?

Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:58 pm

tkdbrusco wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:AHr starts out in the 60s, leafspy assumes 66.25 AHr for a new pack. The table below is just collected guesswork from all the threads on this forum about people losing bars. Don't consider it accurate, just something to compare to.

Loss of bar 12 - between 53.75 AHr and 56 AHr
Loss of bar 11 - between 49.75 AHr and 52 AHr
Loss of bar 10 - between 45.75 AHr and 48 AHr
Loss of bar 9 - between 41.75 AHr and 44 AHr

I don't pay attention to GIDs

All the 24 kWh packs regardless of year have been losing bars at the same AHr levels. 30 kWh packs will have a different table.


This may be true for 11-14 packs, but do we even have a 2015 with a lost bar yet? How do we know they are the same? They are the first year to start with 292 Gids.


any Gids or Ahrs over the top is above 100%, aka a buffer. It just makes the 12th bar bigger. The rest is the same. We had this same discussion when the 2013 owners found higher numbers vs the 2011/2012.

Note you aren't guaranteed any GID or Ahr number. The packs all have different numbers leaving the factory and degrade during storage, travel, sitting on the dealer lot. By the time someone buys or leases the car each and every leaf has a slightly different "new" capacity.

Nissan bills the packs as 24 kWh and 30 kWh anything you find out with leafspy is icing on the cake or bad news but Nissan says hay we gave you a 24 kWh pack.

As to actual examples we have a 2015 pack that lost a bar already but it was a free replacement pack put in a 2011 just last summer in 2015. I don't know of a 2015 car with a 2015 pack that lost a bar yet. I don't think that distinction means anything though. As far as I'm concerned if you put a 2016 pack in a 2011 car its still a 2016 pack.

See viewtopic.php?f=27&t=20706 and viewtopic.php?f=27&t=21524 for discusions of 2015 packs that have lost bars already. But be ready to read some messages saying they haven't seen the loss. Watch those or newer threads at the end of this summer or maybe later and see when the first actual 2015 car joins the other "lizard pack" bar losers list. It's only a matter of time.
2012 Leaf tires 195/65/15 Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S, 15" Rims
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
(leaf range chart)
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

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gbarry42
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Re: Gids, AHR, Bar drop estimates?

Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:16 pm

dhanson865 wrote:I don't pay attention to GIDs

Is that because you don't believe they are useful, or you have some other favorite measurement, or is it that your driving doesn't require you to care?
And there goes the first capacity bar! At 24,000 mi on 9/9/2013.
Second bar at 30,500 mi on 2/7/2015.

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lpickup
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Re: Gids, AHR, Bar drop estimates?

Sun Apr 03, 2016 5:15 am

gbarry42 wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:I don't pay attention to GIDs

Is that because you don't believe they are useful, or you have some other favorite measurement, or is it that your driving doesn't require you to care?


Actually that brings up a good point of discussion.

I don't care about them either because the only time you could get a meaningful value is when you charge to 100%, and I rarely do that, so it's not convenient to track GIDs.

But even more so, isn't the AHr figure basically the same (and potentially has more resolution) than GIDs? AND you don't need to charge all the way to 100%? Where does LEAFSpy get this figure from? Does it come directly from the car itself, or is it calculated (possibly even from GIDs and an SOC%)?

Back in the day, GIDs was all we knew about and we had to make do, despite the fact that no one authoritatively knew exactly how much energy they represented. Now there are more direct figures that are actually easier to interpret. The ONLY question would be whether they are less (or more?) accurate than GIDs. Do we know that at this point in time?
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dhanson865
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Re: Gids, AHR, Bar drop estimates?

Sun Apr 03, 2016 8:20 am

gbarry42 wrote:
dhanson865 wrote:I don't pay attention to GIDs

Is that because you don't believe they are useful, or you have some other favorite measurement, or is it that your driving doesn't require you to care?


Gids are not normalized, they vary from car to car. You have no idea when you walk up to the car what "full" is in GIDs.

%GIDs or %SOC look the same but have a difference that %GIDS is absolute and %SOC is relative.

The SOC shown on the dash is relative and the SOC shown in leafspy is relative, the SOC that charging completes at 80% or "100%" is relative.

I see no reason to think in two frames of reference when doing short convenience math. And I see no reason for 5+ frames of reference when I do more complicated math.

If I want absolutes I'll use watthours (Wh) or kilowatthours (kWh). Same thing different decimal placement.

Leafspy is happy enough to tell me that I spent 3487 Wh on my drive into work and I know that was a trip rom 80% SOC to 69% SOC.

Good enough for me, if I want to know efficiency I can look at miles/kWh or Wh/mile (same value just inverted aka reciprocal). That is also absolute but in a different frame of reference.

So if I want to know how much capacity is in my battery I look at kWh remaining when fully charged. I don't look at AHr or Gids.

And when I want to know if a bar will drop I look at SOH%. It's not as fine grained, but its a nice normalized to 100 number that is easy to think about. I only mention AHr and Hx for those that want the full details. I don't think it really helps the discussion. The trigger for actual bar loss might use AHr, HX, and SOC% for all we know or it may only use one or two of those. Since we don't know you could use any of the three and still be relatively accurate.

recap:

1. SOC% for lazy mental math of how much of my charge did I spend on this trip and how much do I need to get back.
2. kWh how much did I spend on that trip so I can compare year to year with absolutes to isolate degradation and compare to trips from prior years or vs other metrics.
3. miles per kWh or Wh per mile to compare two trips of different lengths.
4. SOH% to see where I am on battery health vs a new battery.
2012 Leaf tires 195/65/15 Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S, 15" Rims
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
(leaf range chart)
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

cwerdna
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Re: Gids, AHR, Bar drop estimates?

Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:52 pm

dhanson865 wrote:AHr starts out in the 60s, leafspy assumes 66.25 AHr for a new pack. The table below is just collected guesswork from all the threads on this forum about people losing bars. Don't consider it accurate, just something to compare to.

Loss of bar 12 - between 53.75 AHr and 56 AHr
Loss of bar 11 - between 49.75 AHr and 52 AHr
Loss of bar 10 - between 45.75 AHr and 48 AHr
Loss of bar 9 - between 41.75 AHr and 44 AHr

I don't pay attention to GIDs

All the 24 kWh packs regardless of year have been losing bars at the same AHr levels. 30 kWh packs will have a different table.

Any revisions to this table? I haven't been monitoring other CB losses but viewtopic.php?p=487977#p487977 seems to show your table is off a bit for loss of 11th bar and off by a lot for loss of 10th bar on a '13.

'13 blue Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
'13 blue Leaf SV w/QC + LED & premium packages (lease over, car returned)
'06 Prius

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