Yanquetino
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 7:47 am

Altered capacity bar thresholds?

Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:19 am

Those who wonder about the capacity bar loss percentages might want to read my post: Strike Three!

kolmstead
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:07 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Jan 2011
Leaf Number: 000257
Location: Ridgecrest, California (100 miles east of Bakersfield)

Re: Altered capacity bar thresholds

Thu Jun 16, 2016 9:55 am

Yup, your analysis is correct. I lost 4th bar at 41.87 Ahr; about 63.2% of original capacity. 43.5K miles, two months after capacity warranty expired. If I had it to do over again, I would not have P3227 done until 4th bar disappeared. There's little doubt that Nissan adjusted the bottoms of the capacity bars downward substantially (and removed any reference to % capacity in the service manual).

With hot weather just beginning, my battery is down to 40.3 Ahr at 45K miles. I'll get four or five more months use out of the car, and then it won't get me home from work anymore. When it starts hitting VLBW every night, it's going to the Salvation Army. LBW is okay; that's happening once or twice a week now.

-Karl

Valdemar
Posts: 2407
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 10:32 pm
Delivery Date: 09 Sep 2011
Location: Oak Park, CA

Re: Altered capacity bar thresholds

Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:55 am

This is what we suspected all along, however to be fair we don't really know if the 100% SOH in LeafSpy is the same 100% used in the original revision of the service manual.
'11 SL, totaled
-1CB@33k/21mo, -2CB@53k/33mo, -3CB@68k/41mo, -4CB(41.5AHr)@79k/49mo, -5CB(38.85AHr)@87.5k/54mo
-0CB(66.14AHr)@87.5k/54mo (BBB)
59.7AHr, SOH 93%, 118k miles
9kW Solar

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Gold Member
Posts: 198
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Altered capacity bar thresholds

Thu Jun 16, 2016 2:55 pm

That is SOOO WRONG?!?! Does this mean that losing 3 bars will now mean that we're at 70% of original capacity?!?! :x
[2013 leaf traded for 2016 leaf S30:
build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
1 May 2017 - 7300 miles & 363 GIDs
6 Sep 2017 - 13k miles & 359 GIDs]

Tonyt
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:36 pm
Delivery Date: 30 May 2011
Location: OC California

Re: Altered capacity bar thresholds

Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:48 pm

4 bar loss equals around 70% 8 bars remaining is 66% of bars, which is a lot lower than 70% and 3 bars is 75%. New batteries are about 60 ahr, 4the bar drops around 42 ahr, which is actually 70%. But not every car is dropping the 4th bar at 42. I wonder if the bars are scaled for each battery? That could explain why the bars drop differently for everyone. It would be good if the original capacity can be found and see if the 4 bar dropping is related to the original capacity.
The cars I drive on a regular basis.

2011 Leaf SL, bought as 4 bar looser!
2015 Fusion Energi, Gas guzzler!
2016 Fiat 500e
2016 Spark EV

Yanquetino
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 7:47 am

Re: Altered capacity bar thresholds

Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:26 pm

Tonyt wrote:4 bar loss equals around 70% 8 bars remaining is 66% of bars, which is a lot lower than 70% and 3 bars is 75%. New batteries are about 60 ahr, 4the bar drops around 42 ahr, which is actually 70%. But not every car is dropping the 4th bar at 42.

Your numbers are off. Please read my post that started this thread. Also, a new 24kW battery has 66.25 Ahr, which is the base that LEAFStat and Leaf Spy Pro use to calculate capacity SOH:

Current Ahr ÷ 66.25 Ahr = Current Capacity

User avatar
drees
Moderator
Posts: 6197
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 3:51 pm
Location: San Diego

Re: Altered capacity bar thresholds

Thu Jun 16, 2016 11:06 pm

What we don't know is how accurate the numbers coming out of the car are.

After all, after P3227, the Hx values dropped significantly, as well did the Ahr values after they settled down.

Unless you pull the pack out of the car and measure the remaining capacity compared to what it was when new, it's hard to say for sure how close the AHr values are to the actual values.
'11 LEAF SL Powered By 3.24 kW Enphase Solar PV

Tonyt
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 1:36 pm
Delivery Date: 30 May 2011
Location: OC California

Re: Altered capacity bar thresholds

Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:08 am

Yanquetino wrote:
Tonyt wrote:4 bar loss equals around 70% 8 bars remaining is 66% of bars, which is a lot lower than 70% and 3 bars is 75%. New batteries are about 60 ahr, 4the bar drops around 42 ahr, which is actually 70%. But not every car is dropping the 4th bar at 42.

Your numbers are off. Please read my post that started this thread. Also, a new 24kW battery has 66.25 Ahr, which is the base that LEAFStat and Leaf Spy Pro use to calculate capacity SOH:

Current Ahr ÷ 66.25 Ahr = Current Capacity


Thanks. I could not remember the exact beginning number and 60 was in my mind for some reason. With 66 my battery is being relplaced at 64% capacity. I'm not sure when the bar dropped since I purchased the car used.

There is a lot of wiggle room since Nissan states replacement around 70%. And I would not be surprised to hear Nissan say that 66% is about 70%... I would also not be surprised if the update makes the 4th bar drop at a lower ahr.
The cars I drive on a regular basis.

2011 Leaf SL, bought as 4 bar looser!
2015 Fusion Energi, Gas guzzler!
2016 Fiat 500e
2016 Spark EV

dhanson865
Moderator
Posts: 1477
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 7:12 am
Leaf Number: 16156
Location: Tennessee

Re: Altered capacity bar thresholds?

Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:30 am

Yanquetino wrote:Those who wonder about the capacity bar loss percentages might want to read my post: Strike Three!


I don't agree with your conclusion.

There is a concept called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hysteresis that I think you need to consider.

The percentage per bar didn't change but the time a bar goes away does lag slightly vs the trigger. That in part is why most use Ahr and Hx instead of SOH to measure when the bar dropped.

I'd also say part of your confusion is you are still using leafstat instead of Leaf spy and the terms, units vary slightly.

At the time of your 3rd bar loss you have

72% SOH
51.85% Hx
47.53 Ahr

my cheat sheet shows

Loss of bar 12 - between 53.75 AHr and 56 AHr
Loss of bar 11 - between 49.75 AHr and 52 AHr
Loss of bar 10 - between 45.75 AHr and 48 AHr
Loss of bar 9 - between 41.75 AHr and 44 AHr

and your Ahr is right in line with that.

Going further the bars per the old manual are

capacity bars
100% to 85% = 12 bars (15%)
85% to 78.75% = 11 bars (6.25%)
78.75% to 72.5% = 10 bars (6.25%)
72.5% to 66.25% = 9 bars (6.25%)
66.25% to 60% = 8 bars (6.25%)
60% to 53.75% = 7 bars (6.25%)
53.75% to 47.5% = 6 bars (6.25%)
47.5% to 41.25% = 5 bars (6.25%)
41.25% to 35% = 4 bars (6.25%)
35% to 28.75% = 3 bars (6.25%)
28.75% to 22.5% = 2 bars (6.25%)
22.5% to 16.25% = 1 bar (6.25%)

and you are in line with that as well.


You seem to think an update changed the behavior but if you go back to the 2012 threads the arizona losers dropped bars before the update in line with the numbers of those of us that got the update and dropped bars after that.
2012 Leaf tires 195/65/15 Dunlop Enasave 01 A/S, 15" Rims
wiki/index.php?title=Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss
(leaf range chart)
(efficiency 3.x KW vs 6.x KW)
please join Truedelta.com and input your repairs.

Yanquetino
Posts: 478
Joined: Tue May 11, 2010 7:47 am

Re: Altered capacity bar thresholds?

Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:10 am

dhanson865 wrote:The percentage per bar didn't change but the time a bar goes away does lag slightly vs the trigger. That in part is why most use Ahr and Hx instead of SOH to measure when the bar dropped.

I do use Ahr. Indeed, the SOH is simply the result of dividing the Ahr by 66.25 Ahr.
dhanson865 wrote:I'd also say part of your confusion is you are still using leafstat instead of Leaf spy and the terms, units vary slightly.

I use both LEAFstat and Leaf Spy Pro. They both gave readouts of 47.53 Ahr when my 3rd bar disappeared.
dhanson865 wrote:Going further the bars per the old manual are

capacity bars

78.75% to 72.5% = 10 bars (6.25%)

and you are in line with that as well.

I fail to see how 71.73% is "in line" with that.
dhanson865 wrote:You seem to think an update changed the behavior but if you go back to the 2012 threads the arizona losers dropped bars before the update in line with the numbers of those of us that got the update and dropped bars after that.

I didn't know Ahr readouts were ever reported for the AZ owners. Please post them! And sorry: it is not simply that I "think an update changed the behavior." Nissan explicitly stated that the update would change the behavior --supposedly by making the gauges "tighter." Now, if you have Ahr readouts from the AZ owners, and they are even lower than what other owners have since reported in the Nissan Wiki, that would substantiate that the automaker did, in fact, tighten the gauges. Let's see them, please.

Return to “Batteries & Charging”