Portable Generator minimum spec

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emsik1001

Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2015
Messages
9
Hi,

We are preparing for a very long trip across Europe with our Nissan Leaf (https://katieandemil.academy/project-griffy)

I wanted to find out what is the minimim spec for a generator // portable power bank that would charge Nissan Leaf if we completely run out of juice.

I have seen this one https://www.solarpowersupply.co.uk/goal-zero-yeti-1250-solar-generator

and this probably will not work? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Streetwize-SWPP5-Power-Pack/dp/B004ITAF72

Would any of these product be capable of "emergency" charging Nissan Leaf, just for extra several miles + for convenient charging of laptops, smartphones when we are on the move :)

Regards
Emil Glownia
 
Ahhh you're not even close. In reality it is not feasible to portably recharge any ev.

http://www.charging-solutions.com/products/ev-rescue.aspx
 
emsik1001 said:
I have seen this one https://www.solarpowersupply.co.uk/goal-zero-yeti-1250-solar-generator

and this probably will not work? https://www.amazon.co.uk/Streetwize-SWPP5-Power-Pack/dp/B004ITAF72

Would any of these product be capable of "emergency" charging Nissan Leaf, just for extra several miles + for convenient charging of laptops, smartphones when we are on the move :)
Click to expand...
Those aren't generators. Those are portable battery packs.

Here are 3 threads I found about charging from actual generators:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=5792
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13318
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=8257

I found them by Googling for site:mynissanleaf.com charging on generator honda ground.
 
My goal is to charge the car, for me if I find something that is practical then that's great. I don't mind if it is a battery pack or a generator (as long as it is not a petrol generator).

Regarding charging in turtle mode or when I run out completely, I'm fine with that. I can always plan to charge before it happens, if I know I haven't got enough juice to get to the next charger.

I would appreciate if someone could tell me if the the products I shared, would be capable of charging Nissan leaf. A yes or no, would be an ideal answer :)

Take care
Emil Glownia
 
emsik1001 said:
My goal is to charge the car, for me if I find something that is practical then that's great. I don't mind if it is a battery pack or a generator (as long as it is not a petrol generator).
Click to expand...
What other fuel would you expect the "generator" to run on if not petrol? Diesel? Propane? Hydrogen? (just joking on this)

As I said, the threads I've pointed you to should be good starting points. http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=133611#p133611 was one where it succeeded but it fails your petrol (gas or gasoline in American parlance) criteria. Others there also succeeded.

I'm not an EE, but I think you'd need to do http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=182547#p182547. Ingineer's posts there (you should read the restof his replies there) and in general are often very helpful and insightful.
 
Battery Capacity: 1200Wh, 100Ah (12V)
Click to expand...


This is the big problem. That 100AH at 12 volts becomes just 10AH at 120 volts. If that's lead-acid storage, it's actually more like 7AH. This just isn't enough capacity, and likely not enough amperage, to charge a Leaf even at minimum L-1 conditions. What you need, at a minimum, is a gasoline generator that will easily put out 15 amps at 120 volts, and run for many hours on a small amount of gasoline. This would add 5% per hour to a 24kwh Leaf pack, and even less to a 30kwh pack.
 
Remember I believe the OP is in a country where 220v is L1.....not sure at what amps L1 becomes L2 but it's not as easy as in the US where L1 is 120v and L2 is 240v :)
The issue with such a small "battery backup" (I wouldn't really call what they want a generator as has been said generators generally run on a flammable gas of some type) is I believe you need to at least meet the minimum charge rate to get the Leafs charger to start. In the US that is 6a, not sure about a 220v country.....
Upon further looking it looks like the linked device is only 12v DC........not sure how good that will work to charge a Leaf......at minimum you'd need a inverter capable of outputting the minimum voltage and amperage to start the Leaf charging.
 
jjeff said:
Remember I believe the OP is in a country where 220v is L1.....not sure at what amps L1 becomes L2 but it's not as easy as in the US where L1 is 120v and L2 is 240v :)
The issue with such a small "battery backup" (I wouldn't really call what they want a generator as has been said generators generally run on a flammable gas of some type) is I believe you need to at least meet the minimum charge rate to get the Leafs charger to start. In the US that is 6a, not sure about a 220v country.....
Upon further looking it looks like the linked device is only 12v DC........not sure how good that will work to charge a Leaf......at minimum you'd need a inverter capable of outputting the minimum voltage and amperage to start the Leaf charging.
Click to expand...

The OP could get a US-spec 120 volt EVSE, so a portable gen (also US-spec!) could charge it at 120 volt L-1. 220 volts, or whatever the voltage is in Europe, could also work, but that would be a larger gen and would need either a ground stake or the resistor mod. Maybe they can find a small 120 volt gen that will run on propane.
 
emsik1001 said:
Solar, as per my question. That is why I have shared a link to a product that is a Solar Generator with 1,2kW battery.

Below are more details of the product.
http://www.goalzero.com/p/140/Goal-Zero-Yeti-1250-Solar-Generator

My questions are:
Click to expand...
It is NOT a generator. The battery has a 1.2 kWh capacity, not 1.2 kW.

From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/generator, the applicable definition is:
: one that generates: as
...
b : a machine by which mechanical energy is changed into electrical energy
Click to expand...
If you look at in the box and the charging & powering section, it doesn't generate anything. It is a $1600 big battery. You charge it via a bunch of sources such as wall, car (the 12 volt power port/cigarette lighter plug, which takes 44 hours) or solar panels, which takes awhile. The fastest is their $499 Boulder 90 panel, which says it'd take 27 to 54 hours.

Since you can't charge a Leaf using 12 volts DC, you'll have to use the Yeti's built in inverter that per their tech specs says "AC inverter (output, pure sine wave): 110VAC 60Hz, 10A (1200W continuous, 1500W surge max)". So, assuming you solved any grounding problems as the links I pointed to alluded to, you'd also need to get an EVSE the would draw less than 10 amps continuous or less (stock US L1 EVSE pulls 12 amps and you can't turn it down nor turn it down on the car), otherwise it'd overload the Yeti and almost certainly cause shutdown.

The above Yeti 1250 would have a bunch of losses converting its battery's DC to AC. And, you'd have yet even more losses on the car side converting AC back to DC (done in the car's on-board charger).

https://avt.inl.gov/sites/default/files/pdf/fsev/SteadyStateLoadCharacterization2015Leaf.pdf has 120 volt charging efficiency values from the "wall".

If you run a Leaf until turtle or dead, I don't (off the top of my head) know how much energy you must add to the battery in order to drive again. If our wild guess is that 0.7 kWh is all that'll make it into the Leaf's battery from 1 of all of the above, it might not be enough. You're frankly better off not running out by planning better, using Leaf Spy and calling for a tow if you do.
 
Has anyone else noticed that the Leaf's inbuilt DC-DC converter can shift power both ways? You can observe this about a minute after you turn the windscreen wipers off. The Leaf boosts the 12V voltage when the wipers are on to handle the increased load. This charges the 12V battery to a marginally higher voltage. About a minute after the wipers are turned off the DC-DC voltage drops back down and approx 4A flows from the 12V battery back to the traction battery.

Back in my early days of leaf ownership I turtled the car and almost got stranded. Leafspy was up and running at the time and I noticed something interesting. The DC-DC converter that normally charges the 12V battery went into reverse, significantly. From memory it was pulling 20+A (about 240W) from the lead acid battery, presumably to supplement the traction battery which was almost empty.

At the time I was more worried about getting back to my L2 charger than I was about observing this phenomena. But it's got potential for what the OP is proposing to do. The built-in DC-DC converter it would be by far the most efficient way of providing power to the traction battery from a backup battery source. A separate deep-cycle battery could be wired into the trunk and heavy gauge copper wire run through to the 'starter battery'. In the event of reaching turtle and not having enough charge, flick the switch on the emergency battery and it could supplement the traction battery.

Before going ahead with any installation, you need want to run some tests to see how the DC-DC converter performs in turtle mode, and when it starts pulling down the lead-acid battery. In an ideal world you would be able to run the DC-DC converter at full noise (based on the 'internet' it's good for 180A, nominally 2kw).

I wonder what the input voltage tolerance is on the DC-DC. If you stacked 7 x 2V batteries (14V nominal), as opposed to 6 (12V nominal), the DC-DC converter would try and pull it down based on it's normal output voltage of ~13V. Depending on the internal resistance of the battery bank you could suck it down pretty quickly into the HV battery. This would obviously require the 'starter' battery to be disconnected. Note, that the smallest 2V battery I can find is 240Ahr (108Ahr at 1hr discharge rate) and weights 20kg (44 pounds). A 14V bank would cost maybe $4k, give you 1.5kWh and weigh 140kgs. Is it really worth it for the extra 10 or so kms you could eek out of it? I'd rather put that money towards a Tesla!
 
Aussie said:
Has anyone else noticed that the Leaf's inbuilt DC-DC converter can shift power both ways? You can observe this about a minute after you turn the windscreen wipers off. The Leaf boosts the 12V voltage when the wipers are on to handle the increased load. This charges the 12V battery to a marginally higher voltage. About a minute after the wipers are turned off the DC-DC voltage drops back down and approx 4A flows from the 12V battery back to the traction battery.

Back in my early days of leaf ownership I turtled the car and almost got stranded. Leafspy was up and running at the time and I noticed something interesting. The DC-DC converter that normally charges the 12V battery went into reverse, significantly. From memory it was pulling 20+A (about 240W) from the lead acid battery, presumably to supplement the traction battery which was almost empty.

At the time I was more worried about getting back to my L2 charger than I was about observing this phenomena. But it's got potential for what the OP is proposing to do. The built-in DC-DC converter it would be by far the most efficient way of providing power to the traction battery from a backup battery source. A separate deep-cycle battery could be wired into the trunk and heavy gauge copper wire run through to the 'starter battery'. In the event of reaching turtle and not having enough charge, flick the switch on the emergency battery and it could supplement the traction battery.

Before going ahead with any installation, you need want to run some tests to see how the DC-DC converter performs in turtle mode, and when it starts pulling down the lead-acid battery. In an ideal world you would be able to run the DC-DC converter at full noise (based on the 'internet' it's good for 180A, nominally 2kw).

I wonder what the input voltage tolerance is on the DC-DC. If you stacked 7 x 2V batteries (14V nominal), as opposed to 6 (12V nominal), the DC-DC converter would try and pull it down based on it's normal output voltage of ~13V. Depending on the internal resistance of the battery bank you could suck it down pretty quickly into the HV battery. This would obviously require the 'starter' battery to be disconnected. Note, that the smallest 2V battery I can find is 240Ahr (108Ahr at 1hr discharge rate) and weights 20kg (44 pounds). A 14V bank would cost maybe $4k, give you 1.5kWh and weigh 140kgs. Is it really worth it for the extra 10 or so kms you could eek out of it? I'd rather put that money towards a Tesla!
Click to expand...
This is all very interesting. Where on LeafSpy do you see the current transfer?

I have put a 12v charger onto the car and seen 7 amps just seem to disappear with the 12v battery not being charged much. I did not look to see if I was getting charge into the HV Battery.

Thanks,
Dan
 
Danl said:
This is all very interesting. Where on LeafSpy do you see the current transfer?

I have put a 12v charger onto the car and seen 7 amps just seem to disappear with the 12v battery not being charged much. I did not look to see if I was getting charge into the HV Battery.

Thanks,
Dan
Click to expand...

Hey Dan,

On the bottom left of the screen it shows the auxiliary voltage and current. It's on most of the screens.
 
Aussie said:
Danl said:
This is all very interesting. Where on LeafSpy do you see the current transfer?

I have put a 12v charger onto the car and seen 7 amps just seem to disappear with the 12v battery not being charged much. I did not look to see if I was getting charge into the HV Battery.

Thanks,
Dan
Click to expand...

Hey Dan,

On the bottom left of the screen it shows the auxiliary voltage and current. It's on most of the screens.
Click to expand...
I See Voltage but not Current.

Thanks,
Dan
 
The size of generator you need to charge the LEAF depends upon the EVSE. A good 3 kW continuous gasoline-engine generator will charge a LEAF at 12 amperes and 240 volts if its governor and voltage regulator respond quickly enough to handle the ramp up in current as the onboard charger starts charging. A smaller generator can be used if the EVSE pilot signal can be adjusted to limit the charging current. A larger generator is needed if the EVSE pilot signal allows more charging current. In general, 1 kWh will provide about 3 miles (5 km) of driving. About 2 kWh of charging energy is needed to get the LEAF to go into READY mode and allow driving after shutdown (main contactor opens after Turtle). If the EVSE checks for safety ground connections, one or more resistors may be needed to temporarily connect one lead of the generator output to the safety ground before the EVSE will allow charging.

Gerry
 
emsik1001 said:
Solar, as per my question. That is why I have shared a link to a product that is a Solar Generator with 1,2kW battery.

Below are more details of the product.
http://www.goalzero.com/p/140/Goal-Zero-Yeti-1250-Solar-Generator

My questions are:

1) Would this product allow me to charge Nissan Leaf?
2) If yes, and it's (1,2kW Solar Generator) fully charged, how many extra miles can I expect?

Take care
Emil
Click to expand...


A solar (PV) charging system that would give a significant number of extra miles would be quite large. I'm installing 8 of the best/largest PV panels (~2700 watts) so that I can charge my Leaf off-grid. I don't expect to get a full charge every day (6-8 good sun hours in Texas), even with the best sun conditions. A relatively "tiny" system (PV panel area that you are looking at) depends more on the battery energy storage and would be depleted quickly (assuming you can get a 120volt/L1 charging scheme set up properly with grounding, etc).

If you are serious, something like the Honda 2000 watt model, powered by a propane bottle would give you some extra range on one bottle - likely in the range of 50-70 miles - and will take some time to charge at the full L1 charge power level. E.g., at 4 miles/KWH, you would extend range about 6-7 miles every hour of charging at full charge capacity of your L1 charger. Actually, the 2000 watt gen is a good match for the OEM L1 charger.

http://www.genconnexdirect.net/honda_propane_modified_generators.htm

Don't want propane in your car? I guess if people are willing to put a tank of 10,000 psi hydrogen under their car, a 20 pound bottle of propane in the back area doesn't sound so bad!! Personally, I'd not do it, however.

Hope this helps
 
Best to focus on the destination before you leave any charging station.
Most likely you should map the entire trip of charging stations before the first mile is driven.
This is really the only practical way to do the trip without carbon fuel.
 

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