Aang2013S
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:18 am
Leaf Number: 405524
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Just hit 8 bars with $8,000 owed = advice needed!

Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:26 am

Hi! I recently bought a used 2013 S Nisan Leaf with 9 Bars and 43,000 miles on it back in August (of 2018). I own a truck that I am still paying on, but bought the Leaf to essentially convert the $200+ I was spending in gas a month into a Leaf monthly payment. I have a commute that is 36 miles roundtrip mainly on freeway (there is one day where it is stretched to 42.5 miles). Last week the car dropped to 8 bars. I had heard a few different things about the warranties on the batteries, so I drove it into the dealership and found out that there are two different warranties and that the battery capacity warranty where they would swap the battery out for a new one ended for this car on 4/27/18. This is something one would think I should have figured out and known before I bought the car, but even when I was test driving it and took it to a dealership I was told by a Nissan employee that the batteries are warrantied to 100,000 miles or 8 years = he didn't bother telling me about the two different warranties or didn't even know about them. I am partially calm and partially freaking out. I owe $8,000 on this car and now I don't even know if it will be able to do my commute within the next three years. I have started this thread because the biggest question I can't find any answers to is how many years do I have before my car becomes un-useable? I am totally aware of all the dependable factors i.e. where you live, how you charge, how you drive. Although my work does not have a charger, there is a Nissan dealership right by with a level 3 and level 2 (although the level 2 ones are always taken). I still have the option of selling the car to someone else that lives and works within a super small distance. Any advice or wisdom would be highly appreciated. Thanks!
Last edited by Aang2013S on Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

SageBrush
Posts: 2911
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Just hit 8 bars with $8,000 owed = am I screwed?

Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:36 am

Sorry, no good news for you.

1. You paid way too much for the car. I was offered $7k for my 12 bar LEAF a few months ago
2. The range will drop a lot in the winter -- I'll guess 20-30%, perhaps more if you use cabin heating
3. The degradation warranty is from first sale date, so the 4/18 is probably correct
4. Degradation will continue, at a rate of ~ 5% a year.

In your shoes, I would reduce insurance costs to a minimum and use the LEAF during decent weather. That should cover a good portion, although probably not all, of your purchase cost. Try to not screw someone else to back out of your mistake.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Aang2013S
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:18 am
Leaf Number: 405524
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Re: Just hit 8 bars with $8,000 owed = am I screwed?

Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:43 am

SageBrush wrote:Sorry, no good news for you.

1. You paid way too much for the car. I was offered $7k for my 12 bar LEAF a few months ago
2. The range will drop a lot in the winter -- I'll guess 20-30%, perhaps more if you use cabin heating
3. The degradation warranty is from first sale date, so the 4/18 is probably correct
4. Degradation will continue, at a rate of ~ 5% a year.

In your shoes, I would reduce insurance costs to a minimum and use the LEAF during decent weather. That should cover a good portion, although probably not all, of your purchase cost. Try to not screw someone else to back out of your mistake.


Thanks so much for the reply!

WetEV
Posts: 2370
Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:25 am
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2014
Location: Near Seattle, WA

Re: Just hit 8 bars with $8,000 owed = am I screwed?

Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:18 am

Aang2013S wrote:Hi! I recently bought a used 2013 S Nisan Leaf with 9 Bars and 43,000 miles on it back in August (of 2018). I own a truck that I am still paying on, but bought the Leaf to essentially convert the $200+ I was spending in gas a month into a Leaf monthly payment. I have a commute that is 36 miles roundtrip mainly on freeway (there is one day where it is stretched to 42.5 miles).


I'm sorry to say, probably yes.

I recommend, and have for years, that people buy new EVs only if the commute is less than the "No worries range", which is somewhere around half of the EPA range. You are beyond that range at 42.5 miles, even with a new EV. Yes, not by much, but Salt Lake City has cold winters. Freeway miles might be high speed, if not things are a little better. The slower you can drive, the longer the range on a charge.

Worse, your car isn't new, and is out of warranty.

Wintertime, the battery will store less energy at colder temperatures. Rolling resistance increases as your tires get cold. Cabin heat is a requirement. I the car might not reliably do your commute this winter on the coldest days this winter. Of course, you do have the option of taking the truck on the coldest days at first, and probably most of the winter eventually.


Aang2013S wrote:I still have the option of selling the car to someone else that lives and works within a super small distance. Any advice or wisdom would be highly appreciated. Thanks!


If you can get close to what you paid, you might sell the car. Someone with shorter range needs could use it for many years.

Reliable workplace charging, even L1 (120V 15A standard outlet) would change this advice. You could probably do three years or more with that. Even more if you drove the truck on the coldest days.

I doubt if a new battery is within budget.

SageBrush is in rural Colorado, and his local market for used EVs probably isn't close to the national market.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

Aang2013S
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:18 am
Leaf Number: 405524
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Re: Just hit 8 bars with $8,000 owed = am I screwed?

Sun Oct 07, 2018 11:20 am

WetEV wrote:
Aang2013S wrote:Hi! I recently bought a used 2013 S Nisan Leaf with 9 Bars and 43,000 miles on it back in August (of 2018). I own a truck that I am still paying on, but bought the Leaf to essentially convert the $200+ I was spending in gas a month into a Leaf monthly payment. I have a commute that is 36 miles roundtrip mainly on freeway (there is one day where it is stretched to 42.5 miles).


I'm sorry to say, probably yes.

I recommend, and have for years, that people buy new EVs only if the commute is less than the "No worries range", which is somewhere around half of the EPA range. You are beyond that range at 42.5 miles, even with a new EV. Yes, not by much, but Salt Lake City has cold winters. Freeway miles might be high speed, if not things are a little better. The slower you can drive, the longer the range on a charge.

Worse, your car isn't new, and is out of warranty.

Wintertime, the battery will store less energy at colder temperatures. Rolling resistance increases as your tires get cold. Cabin heat is a requirement. I the car might not reliably do your commute this winter on the coldest days this winter. Of course, you do have the option of taking the truck on the coldest days at first, and probably most of the winter eventually.


Aang2013S wrote:I still have the option of selling the car to someone else that lives and works within a super small distance. Any advice or wisdom would be highly appreciated. Thanks!


If you can get close to what you paid, you might sell the car. Someone with shorter range needs could use it for many years.

Reliable workplace charging, even L1 (120V 15A standard outlet) would change this advice. You could probably do three years or more with that. Even more if you drove the truck on the coldest days.

I doubt if a new battery is within budget.

SageBrush is in rural Colorado, and his local market for used EVs probably isn't close to the national market.


Hey thank you so much for taking the time to write all of this out. I so appreciate it. I will definitely pass that "no worries range" advice on to others looking into the EV market and use it as I move forward in my own life. I'm thinking Salt Lake City is an interesting spot for EV's where we get desert heat during the summer up to 100 degrees and snow temps during the winter (although due to climate change our winters have become more and more milder). Have a great rest of the day!

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9804
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Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Just hit 8 bars with $8,000 owed = advice needed!

Sun Oct 07, 2018 12:19 pm

Look at the build date on the driver's side door sticker. If it was built BEFORE April of 2013 (as I expect), then the battery will continue to deteriorate fairly rapidly and won't serve you much longer. A new battery would make the car almost like new, and wouldn't deteriorate fast at all, but would cost more than you owe. I'm sorry for the likely bad news.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

HerdingElectrons
Posts: 72
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:20 pm
Delivery Date: 17 Sep 2018
Location: Central Coast, Ca

Re: Just hit 8 bars with $8,000 owed = am I screwed?

Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:02 pm

WetEV wrote:I recommend, and have for years, that people buy new EVs only if the commute is less than the "No worries range", which is somewhere around half of the EPA range. You are beyond that range at 42.5 miles, even with a new EV. Yes, not by much, but Salt Lake City has cold winters. Freeway miles might be high speed, if not things are a little better. The slower you can drive, the longer the range on a charge.


Did you mean even with a new battery in a 2013 Leaf?

Because 1/2 of 151 miles in a '18 certainly is more than 42.5 miles.
2018 SL Pearl White, LOVE ProPilot Currently at 4.1-4.5 miles/kwh as I learn to drive pure EV & the weather gets colder.

Sept 2018: AHr= 114.52 / SOH= 99.2 / HX= 99.70% / 14 mV cell delta

2013 Prius 2, 126K & still really enjoy the car

Aang2013S
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:18 am
Leaf Number: 405524
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Re: Just hit 8 bars with $8,000 owed = advice needed!

Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:17 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Look at the build date on the driver's side door sticker. If it was built BEFORE April of 2013 (as I expect), then the battery will continue to deteriorate fairly rapidly and won't serve you much longer. A new battery would make the car almost like new, and wouldn't deteriorate fast at all, but would cost more than you owe. I'm sorry for the likely bad news.


Thanks so much for getting back to me on this. Looks like it was built in March of 2013. What information am I missing? All research I did before I bought referenced the 2013 model year as the year the battery was improved from the 2011’s & 2012’s.

Can you at all quantify this statement: “the battery will continue to deteriorate fairly rapidly and won't serve you much longer”? That was part of why I made this post, to get more of a ball park idea on how much longer my car will be useable. Thanks so much!

cwerdna
Posts: 8397
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 4:31 pm
Delivery Date: 28 Jul 2013
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Re: Just hit 8 bars with $8,000 owed = advice needed!

Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:31 pm

Aang2013S wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:Look at the build date on the driver's side door sticker. If it was built BEFORE April of 2013 (as I expect), then the battery will continue to deteriorate fairly rapidly and won't serve you much longer. A new battery would make the car almost like new, and wouldn't deteriorate fast at all, but would cost more than you owe. I'm sorry for the likely bad news.


Thanks so much for getting back to me on this. Looks like it was built in March of 2013. What information am I missing? All research I did before I bought referenced the 2013 model year as the year the battery was improved from the 2011’s & 2012’s.

Never heard of the bolded part before.

What we've discovered here on MNL and on other Leaf FB groups is that it seems US Leafs built 4/2013 and later (presumably thru model year '14) has better batteries than all the ones that came before. Seems like ones built before 4/2013 are just as lousy as the ones that came in '11 and '12 Leafs.

FWIW, my 5/2013 built used '13 Leaf SV w/premium which previously resided it seems in the South Bay portion of the SF Bay Area is still at 11 capacity bars (lost the 1st bar in Nov 2017) and is showing SOH right now of 83.99%. I'm at 59,393 miles and live and work in a hotter part of the Bay Area. I bought it in July 2015 (when it was ~25 months old) w/under 24K miles for $9,325 + tax and license. It had all 12 capacity bars until Nov 2017.
Aang2013S wrote:but even when I was test driving it and took it to a dealership I was told by a Nissan employee that the batteries are warrantied to 100,000 miles or 8 years = he didn't bother telling me about the two different warranties or didn't even know about them. I am partially calm and partially freaking out

Nissan employee? Dealer employee? If so, they likely were not a Nissan employee. Due to state franchise laws, in most parts of the US, automakers cannot own dealers. Google for tesla franchise laws state.
Last edited by cwerdna on Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

'13 Leaf SV w/premium package (owned)
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Please don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9804
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Just hit 8 bars with $8,000 owed = advice needed!

Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:36 pm

Yes, and that info came from auction listings that happened to include capacity bar count and build months. I've been broadcasting that info for years now, but it still isn't widely known about the battery changeover happening in March of 2013 rather than January as one would expect. Part of the problem is that we have yet to get our acts together here and create a used Leaf shopping guide. The other part is that guides created elsewhere don't mention this vital piece of information. If this site let you create "sticky" posts then you would have seen it. Again, I'm sorry.

The early 2013 packs actually use the same redesigned cases as the later month builds, but my theory is that Nissan wanted to use up the electrolyte and electrode materials they had left over, and so put them in the new cases for three months.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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