Just hit 8 bars with $8,000 owed = advice needed!

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Aang2013S

New member
Joined
Oct 6, 2018
Messages
4
Location
Salt Lake City, UT
Hi! I recently bought a used 2013 S Nisan Leaf with 9 Bars and 43,000 miles on it back in August (of 2018). I own a truck that I am still paying on, but bought the Leaf to essentially convert the $200+ I was spending in gas a month into a Leaf monthly payment. I have a commute that is 36 miles roundtrip mainly on freeway (there is one day where it is stretched to 42.5 miles). Last week the car dropped to 8 bars. I had heard a few different things about the warranties on the batteries, so I drove it into the dealership and found out that there are two different warranties and that the battery capacity warranty where they would swap the battery out for a new one ended for this car on 4/27/18. This is something one would think I should have figured out and known before I bought the car, but even when I was test driving it and took it to a dealership I was told by a Nissan employee that the batteries are warrantied to 100,000 miles or 8 years = he didn't bother telling me about the two different warranties or didn't even know about them. I am partially calm and partially freaking out. I owe $8,000 on this car and now I don't even know if it will be able to do my commute within the next three years. I have started this thread because the biggest question I can't find any answers to is how many years do I have before my car becomes un-useable? I am totally aware of all the dependable factors i.e. where you live, how you charge, how you drive. Although my work does not have a charger, there is a Nissan dealership right by with a level 3 and level 2 (although the level 2 ones are always taken). I still have the option of selling the car to someone else that lives and works within a super small distance. Any advice or wisdom would be highly appreciated. Thanks!
 
Sorry, no good news for you.

1. You paid way too much for the car. I was offered $7k for my 12 bar LEAF a few months ago
2. The range will drop a lot in the winter -- I'll guess 20-30%, perhaps more if you use cabin heating
3. The degradation warranty is from first sale date, so the 4/18 is probably correct
4. Degradation will continue, at a rate of ~ 5% a year.

In your shoes, I would reduce insurance costs to a minimum and use the LEAF during decent weather. That should cover a good portion, although probably not all, of your purchase cost. Try to not screw someone else to back out of your mistake.
 
SageBrush said:
Sorry, no good news for you.

1. You paid way too much for the car. I was offered $7k for my 12 bar LEAF a few months ago
2. The range will drop a lot in the winter -- I'll guess 20-30%, perhaps more if you use cabin heating
3. The degradation warranty is from first sale date, so the 4/18 is probably correct
4. Degradation will continue, at a rate of ~ 5% a year.

In your shoes, I would reduce insurance costs to a minimum and use the LEAF during decent weather. That should cover a good portion, although probably not all, of your purchase cost. Try to not screw someone else to back out of your mistake.

Thanks so much for the reply!
 
Aang2013S said:
Hi! I recently bought a used 2013 S Nisan Leaf with 9 Bars and 43,000 miles on it back in August (of 2018). I own a truck that I am still paying on, but bought the Leaf to essentially convert the $200+ I was spending in gas a month into a Leaf monthly payment. I have a commute that is 36 miles roundtrip mainly on freeway (there is one day where it is stretched to 42.5 miles).

I'm sorry to say, probably yes.

I recommend, and have for years, that people buy new EVs only if the commute is less than the "No worries range", which is somewhere around half of the EPA range. You are beyond that range at 42.5 miles, even with a new EV. Yes, not by much, but Salt Lake City has cold winters. Freeway miles might be high speed, if not things are a little better. The slower you can drive, the longer the range on a charge.

Worse, your car isn't new, and is out of warranty.

Wintertime, the battery will store less energy at colder temperatures. Rolling resistance increases as your tires get cold. Cabin heat is a requirement. I the car might not reliably do your commute this winter on the coldest days this winter. Of course, you do have the option of taking the truck on the coldest days at first, and probably most of the winter eventually.


Aang2013S said:
I still have the option of selling the car to someone else that lives and works within a super small distance. Any advice or wisdom would be highly appreciated. Thanks!

If you can get close to what you paid, you might sell the car. Someone with shorter range needs could use it for many years.

Reliable workplace charging, even L1 (120V 15A standard outlet) would change this advice. You could probably do three years or more with that. Even more if you drove the truck on the coldest days.

I doubt if a new battery is within budget.

SageBrush is in rural Colorado, and his local market for used EVs probably isn't close to the national market.
 
WetEV said:
Aang2013S said:
Hi! I recently bought a used 2013 S Nisan Leaf with 9 Bars and 43,000 miles on it back in August (of 2018). I own a truck that I am still paying on, but bought the Leaf to essentially convert the $200+ I was spending in gas a month into a Leaf monthly payment. I have a commute that is 36 miles roundtrip mainly on freeway (there is one day where it is stretched to 42.5 miles).

I'm sorry to say, probably yes.

I recommend, and have for years, that people buy new EVs only if the commute is less than the "No worries range", which is somewhere around half of the EPA range. You are beyond that range at 42.5 miles, even with a new EV. Yes, not by much, but Salt Lake City has cold winters. Freeway miles might be high speed, if not things are a little better. The slower you can drive, the longer the range on a charge.

Worse, your car isn't new, and is out of warranty.

Wintertime, the battery will store less energy at colder temperatures. Rolling resistance increases as your tires get cold. Cabin heat is a requirement. I the car might not reliably do your commute this winter on the coldest days this winter. Of course, you do have the option of taking the truck on the coldest days at first, and probably most of the winter eventually.


Aang2013S said:
I still have the option of selling the car to someone else that lives and works within a super small distance. Any advice or wisdom would be highly appreciated. Thanks!

If you can get close to what you paid, you might sell the car. Someone with shorter range needs could use it for many years.

Reliable workplace charging, even L1 (120V 15A standard outlet) would change this advice. You could probably do three years or more with that. Even more if you drove the truck on the coldest days.

I doubt if a new battery is within budget.

SageBrush is in rural Colorado, and his local market for used EVs probably isn't close to the national market.

Hey thank you so much for taking the time to write all of this out. I so appreciate it. I will definitely pass that "no worries range" advice on to others looking into the EV market and use it as I move forward in my own life. I'm thinking Salt Lake City is an interesting spot for EV's where we get desert heat during the summer up to 100 degrees and snow temps during the winter (although due to climate change our winters have become more and more milder). Have a great rest of the day!
 
Look at the build date on the driver's side door sticker. If it was built BEFORE April of 2013 (as I expect), then the battery will continue to deteriorate fairly rapidly and won't serve you much longer. A new battery would make the car almost like new, and wouldn't deteriorate fast at all, but would cost more than you owe. I'm sorry for the likely bad news.
 
WetEV said:
I recommend, and have for years, that people buy new EVs only if the commute is less than the "No worries range", which is somewhere around half of the EPA range. You are beyond that range at 42.5 miles, even with a new EV. Yes, not by much, but Salt Lake City has cold winters. Freeway miles might be high speed, if not things are a little better. The slower you can drive, the longer the range on a charge.

Did you mean even with a new battery in a 2013 Leaf?

Because 1/2 of 151 miles in a '18 certainly is more than 42.5 miles.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Look at the build date on the driver's side door sticker. If it was built BEFORE April of 2013 (as I expect), then the battery will continue to deteriorate fairly rapidly and won't serve you much longer. A new battery would make the car almost like new, and wouldn't deteriorate fast at all, but would cost more than you owe. I'm sorry for the likely bad news.

Thanks so much for getting back to me on this. Looks like it was built in March of 2013. What information am I missing? All research I did before I bought referenced the 2013 model year as the year the battery was improved from the 2011’s & 2012’s.

Can you at all quantify this statement: “the battery will continue to deteriorate fairly rapidly and won't serve you much longer”? That was part of why I made this post, to get more of a ball park idea on how much longer my car will be useable. Thanks so much!
 
Aang2013S said:
LeftieBiker said:
Look at the build date on the driver's side door sticker. If it was built BEFORE April of 2013 (as I expect), then the battery will continue to deteriorate fairly rapidly and won't serve you much longer. A new battery would make the car almost like new, and wouldn't deteriorate fast at all, but would cost more than you owe. I'm sorry for the likely bad news.

Thanks so much for getting back to me on this. Looks like it was built in March of 2013. What information am I missing? All research I did before I bought referenced the 2013 model year as the year the battery was improved from the 2011’s & 2012’s.
Never heard of the bolded part before.

What we've discovered here on MNL and on other Leaf FB groups is that it seems US Leafs built 4/2013 and later (presumably thru model year '14) has better batteries than all the ones that came before. Seems like ones built before 4/2013 are just as lousy as the ones that came in '11 and '12 Leafs.

FWIW, my 5/2013 built used '13 Leaf SV w/premium which previously resided it seems in the South Bay portion of the SF Bay Area is still at 11 capacity bars (lost the 1st bar in Nov 2017) and is showing SOH right now of 83.99%. I'm at 59,393 miles and live and work in a hotter part of the Bay Area. I bought it in July 2015 (when it was ~25 months old) w/under 24K miles for $9,325 + tax and license. It had all 12 capacity bars until Nov 2017.
Aang2013S said:
but even when I was test driving it and took it to a dealership I was told by a Nissan employee that the batteries are warrantied to 100,000 miles or 8 years = he didn't bother telling me about the two different warranties or didn't even know about them. I am partially calm and partially freaking out
Nissan employee? Dealer employee? If so, they likely were not a Nissan employee. Due to state franchise laws, in most parts of the US, automakers cannot own dealers. Google for tesla franchise laws state.
 
Yes, and that info came from auction listings that happened to include capacity bar count and build months. I've been broadcasting that info for years now, but it still isn't widely known about the battery changeover happening in March of 2013 rather than January as one would expect. Part of the problem is that we have yet to get our acts together here and create a used Leaf shopping guide. The other part is that guides created elsewhere don't mention this vital piece of information. If this site let you create "sticky" posts then you would have seen it. Again, I'm sorry.

The early 2013 packs actually use the same redesigned cases as the later month builds, but my theory is that Nissan wanted to use up the electrolyte and electrode materials they had left over, and so put them in the new cases for three months.
 
FWIW, https://www.facebook.com/notes/seattle-nissan-leaf-owners/a-guide-for-buying-a-used-leaf/1100737373291032/ does make a reference to 4/2013 and later build months.
 
When it comes to used LEAFs, model years 2013 and higher are a good choice for a long term purchase. Here’s why:
Better than earlier model years
Nissan made significant improvements in model year (MY) 2013 based on lots of feedback from drivers of their launch model – everything from little but convenient things like a light under the charge port cover, to major improvements like a higher rate of regular charging and a better heating system. Most importantly, Nissan made changes to improve the battery performance starting in MY 2013.

There are a LOT more mentions like this without build month, and then just one suggesting that the 4/2013+ packs "may" have a better chemistry. That isn't worth much.
 
^^^
Well, the 4/2013+ build months having probably better packs has been mentioned a countless number of times here.

I can't speak to all other places though.

I haven't had a chance to read this whole thread but +1 on the advice of 120 volt outlet at work. If one charges all day on that, that'll really improve the useful life of this car for this commute.
 
HerdingElectrons said:
WetEV said:
I recommend, and have for years, that people buy new EVs only if the commute is less than the "No worries range", which is somewhere around half of the EPA range. You are beyond that range at 42.5 miles, even with a new EV. Yes, not by much, but Salt Lake City has cold winters. Freeway miles might be high speed, if not things are a little better. The slower you can drive, the longer the range on a charge.

Did you mean even with a new battery in a 2013 Leaf?

Because 1/2 of 151 miles in a '18 certainly is more than 42.5 miles.

Half of a 2018 Leaf's range is ~75 miles. As you point out, rather longer. Same with new BMW i3, various Tesla models, GM Bolt, etc.

If the OP wanted a new battery, which I don't think he does, I'd very slightly discourage that, as would reset the range to EPA 84 miles, and half of that is 42 miles.
 
I find that if i use surface streets instead of 65mph highways the distance that the car can go increases a lot. its the slow speed and perhaps drafting with other car in closer proximity than what is polite on the highway. if there is a 45mph or 50mph route next to the highway try that, and see how many miles are left on the range estimator or leaf spy app and compare that to the highway route.

if you could plug in 120v L1 at you place of work, or even near you place of work even your 22mile one way trip would be safe for a long time. if work is not an option maybe a homeowner or business will allow you to plug in for a nominal monthly fee. Walmart has 100' 12 awg extension cords for $55 shipped, that might open some options thinking of it like that.
 
WetEV said:
SageBrush is in rural Colorado, and his local market for used EVs probably isn't close to the national market.
Rural Colorado indeed, but my local LEAF market includes a town 45 minutes away that has a Nissan dealership that sells LEAFs to the progressive residents that live there. It is common to see LEAFs being driven around.
 
The warranty for the 2018 Leaf is at least nine bars for 96 months or 100,000 miles, so it appears the 2018 has a better warranty. Remember your warranty starts the day the car was sold, not built. Your CarFax report should indicate the original sale date but the sale date may actually be in 2012.

If you can not get the battery replaced under warranty then you have three options; live with the car with the range you’v got, replace the battery or sell the car. You should be able get a new battery from Nissan for about $6,000 installed or you might be able to pick up a slightly used battery out of a wreck for about $2,000. You might also be able to talk Nissan into sending you one of those remanufactured batteris from Japan for about the price of a used battery.

You have to consider battery replacement in an EV like you consider tire replacement or engine replacement in an ICE, it will be required eventually and you better have the replacement factored into to your purchasing plans. The EV market is still fairly new and does a poor job of factoring in the health of batteries. The EV market should follow aircraft market that values aircraft largely on the number of hours since the last major engine overhaul.

I know none of this probably what you want to hear. But remember that even if your Leaf does not meet your needs it probably is valuable to someone either as a donor or utility car.
 
smkettner said:
Start making double payments on the loan.

I don’t know about that, car loans usually have some of the lowest interest rates. You might be better off using the money to pay down credit cards. Then if you do find a buyer for the car, but you are upside down, you can use the credit card to make up the difference.
 
WetEV said:
Reliable workplace charging, even L1 (120V 15A standard outlet) would change this advice. You could probably do three years or more with that. Even more if you drove the truck on the coldest days.
With a 18 mile one-way commute, I actually think you will do just fine with just being able to charge via L1 during the day at work (and overnight). 8 hours of 120V@12A will give you back more charge than your one-way commute.
 
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