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EVDRIVER
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Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:06 am

DeaneG wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:..The IRS docs are available online- nothing stipulates an IRS approved installer as expected..

Would you happen to have an IRS form number handy? I'd like to check into the requirement for the EV and EVSE to be purchased the same tax year. I have a small suspicion that even as a very early "reserver", chances are good I won't have a Leaf under the tree in late December.



Google says- http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8911.pdf The form is very basic and I suggest you have your tax person put both forms in together to see the result. The rules change each year as well.

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Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Wed Jul 07, 2010 9:19 am

DeaneG wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:..The IRS docs are available online- nothing stipulates an IRS approved installer as expected..

Would you happen to have an IRS form number handy? I'd like to check into the requirement for the EV and EVSE to be purchased the same tax year. I have a small suspicion that even as a very early "reserver", chances are good I won't have a Leaf under the tree in late December.

8834 for the car. PDF file: http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8834.pdf
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DeaneG
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Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:53 pm

Thanks a bunch. Guess it's on off day for me & Google.
I read 8834 and 8911 and did not see anything about the EVSE's installation ("placed in service") needing to be in the same tax year as the EV itself. Looks to me like the two credits are completely separate issues.
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EVDRIVER
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Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:17 pm

DeaneG wrote:Thanks a bunch. Guess it's on off day for me & Google.
I read 8834 and 8911 and did not see anything about the EVSE's installation ("placed in service") needing to be in the same tax year as the EV itself. Looks to me like the two credits are completely separate issues.



They are separate, that's the reason for two forms but there may be implications of using them together so I would check with your tax person to be sure if use in the same year.

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Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Wed Jul 07, 2010 4:47 pm

DeaneG wrote:chances are good I won't have a Leaf under the tree in late December.


Altogether now...."All I want for Christmas is my Planet Blue Leaf, My Planet Blue Leaf, My Planet Blue Leaf....."
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Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Fri Jul 09, 2010 11:16 am

I think all the consternation over proving a particular company's EVSE is compatible with the Leaf is a lot of worry over nothing. The companies making them will test them on a Leaf so they can guarantee to YOU that their product won't fry your car. If they don't they won't sell any units. Now if the techie types decide to build their own, no guarantees.

And the installation cost. All the talk about pulling permits and such. Depends on where you live. In my city, you can do your own plumbing and wiring without permits or inspection if it is in your personal residence. You burn your place down and it is your problem. We did our own wiring when we rehabbed the house 19 years ago. It really isn't too hard to shove a wire under a screw and tighten it. And if you don't go through junction boxes (ie dedicated circuit), it is pretty hard to mess up. The complicated part were the lights that could be operated from 4 different switches. Haven't fried anything yet.

My father-in-law held a master electrician's license until a couple of years before we did the work so it wasn't like we were guessing and hoping. Even if you don't have family expertise, it isn't hard to find the code requirements and follow them. We have more outlets than required, 2 circuits in each room in case one trips. The microwave, disposal and whirlpool tub are on their own circuits, etc. The only place you really need a 'pro' is connecting to the meter where the REALLY hot connections are made. I'm pretty sure I am capable of putting in a 240V "breaker to outlet" circuit to charge a car. It is no different than the ones I already put in for the range, dryer and hot water tank.
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pgrovetom
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Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Fri Jul 09, 2010 2:07 pm

Yes in my county, the homeowner is allowed to do their own wiring subject to final inspection. I had started this thread because the actual cost listed in the San Diego and Tennessee infrastructure documents for EVSE is $780. That price is inline with a rough cost analysis of the EVSE but I was told by AV that only they could install it. No other EVSE supplier, Ecototality, Coulumb, etc. has responded to my questions of self install. I did call my county building department and they affirmed I could do my own wiring and my description of the new 40A breaker, EMT conduit and #8AWG THHN wire was said to be fine for the 32A service. They said a disconnect was not required if I could see my panel which I can.

I'm just trying to determine if any of the EVSE suppliers will allow me to wire the EVSE? The reason is the infrastructure document has a cost analysis of the Level 2 EVSE ( the Level 1 is about the same) where the total cost of material and labor and permit comes to $2272. I purchased the EMT conduit, the THHN wire and 40A breaker for about $75 at Home Depot. I installed it in 2 hours to the location of the EVSE. I left the wiring loose awaiting my assessment. According to the San Diego Infrastructure at $2272 and Nissan $2200 estimate, if I could buy the EVSE at $780, my cost would be the $780+$75+ permit cost. That saves about $1400. In any other case like a 240V stove top, I could buy the stove top and install it plus permit. I just hate to spend $2200 even if the tax credit will pay half. If I install it at $900, then it will cost me $450 after credit. It just seems this EVSE situation is not being treated like any other 240V appliance and its not fair to pay for the excessive installation nor is it fair to have the taxpayers pick up half of a gouged price.

I'm a big proponent of EVs and Solar ( I installed a 12.6KW Solar PV myself) and would hate to see either the Feds or buyers freak out because they are being charged more than is reasonable. Some seem to believe having the Feds pick up 1/2 with the credit is ok, but I don't and I've already talked to people who are upset by the charging chord costing almost 10% of an entire car, when the price is about twice what it should be. This could slow down the EV rollout if this becomes a big issue and I for one, don't want to see that. I know some older people who were VERY excited about the Leaf until they heard about the $2200 ( or more) just to charger it. I would hate to see people back out because of something that could cost $1000 or less.

So I would just like this EVSE treated like any other 240V appliance where I as a homeowner can pull my own permit, buy the EVSE and install it. Maybe it will ultimately be like that but both Nissan and AV were very clear I couldn't. I know its a bit over-discussed but until I pay my $100 for my assessment, I won't really know as Nissan and AV, for now seem stuck.
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Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Fri Jul 09, 2010 3:29 pm

pgrovetom wrote:Yes in my county, the homeowner is allowed to do their own wiring subject to final inspection. I had started this thread because the actual cost listed in the San Diego and Tennessee infrastructure documents for EVSE is $780. That price is inline with a rough cost analysis of the EVSE but I was told by AV that only they could install it. No other EVSE supplier, Ecototality, Coulumb, etc. has responded to my questions of self install. I did call my county building department and they affirmed I could do my own wiring and my description of the new 40A breaker, EMT conduit and #8AWG THHN wire was said to be fine for the 32A service. They said a disconnect was not required if I could see my panel which I can.

I'm just trying to determine if any of the EVSE suppliers will allow me to wire the EVSE? The reason is the infrastructure document has a cost analysis of the Level 2 EVSE ( the Level 1 is about the same) where the total cost of material and labor and permit comes to $2272. I purchased the EMT conduit, the THHN wire and 40A breaker for about $75 at Home Depot. I installed it in 2 hours to the location of the EVSE. I left the wiring loose awaiting my assessment. According to the San Diego Infrastructure at $2272 and Nissan $2200 estimate, if I could buy the EVSE at $780, my cost would be the $780+$75+ permit cost. That saves about $1400. In any other case like a 240V stove top, I could buy the stove top and install it plus permit. I just hate to spend $2200 even if the tax credit will pay half. If I install it at $900, then it will cost me $450 after credit. It just seems this EVSE situation is not being treated like any other 240V appliance and its not fair to pay for the excessive installation nor is it fair to have the taxpayers pick up half of a gouged price.

I'm a big proponent of EVs and Solar ( I installed a 12.6KW Solar PV myself) and would hate to see either the Feds or buyers freak out because they are being charged more than is reasonable. Some seem to believe having the Feds pick up 1/2 with the credit is ok, but I don't and I've already talked to people who are upset by the charging chord costing almost 10% of an entire car, when the price is about twice what it should be. This could slow down the EV rollout if this becomes a big issue and I for one, don't want to see that. I know some older people who were VERY excited about the Leaf until they heard about the $2200 ( or more) just to charger it. I would hate to see people back out because of something that could cost $1000 or less.

So I would just like this EVSE treated like any other 240V appliance where I as a homeowner can pull my own permit, buy the EVSE and install it. Maybe it will ultimately be like that but both Nissan and AV were very clear I couldn't. I know its a bit over-discussed but until I pay my $100 for my assessment, I won't really know as Nissan and AV, for now seem stuck.



Even after the work you did, if the EVSE sold for $1k retail then the most you should pay is $1500 TOP as that would cover the low labor portion of the install, etc.

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Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Fri Jul 09, 2010 4:38 pm

Bicster wrote: Right now, there are none. AV is the only game in town.

Not true...I guess you forgot about the EV Project? A lot of us will be able to receive a FREE charging station. :)
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Re: Level 2 Charger Confusion

Fri Jul 09, 2010 9:28 pm

Not true...I guess you forgot about the EV Project? A lot of us will be able to receive a FREE charging station.


That would be nice but I signed up for the EV project ( which uses Ecotality not AV EVSEs ) but I don't live in a listed city or county. I'm hoping they extend it but I'm not holding my breath? Has anyone actually heard from the EV Project? I got an email from the Sr VP of Sales at Coulomb to call him but I got voicemail. I also checked again with my dealer who has been left in the dark but is asking around. Hopefully when the time comes, an EVSE can be bought and installed for less than $1000.

I looked at the NEC rules for sub panel loading and if anyone needs to upgrade their panel, this could be expensive. I sure hope it doesn't become the Achilles heal of the mass market EV. That would be awful. In a new home it would be easy and cheap but a retrofit might hurt.

By the way, the Level 1 EVSE doesn't have an inexpensive EVSE and also requires a dedicated new circuit. So even if you fall back on the 115V Level 1 EVSE, you still need a a newly installed dedicated 20A circuit installed just for the EVSE but it does just plug into a standard outlet. That installation won't be much cheaper. The only savings is the EVSE is a little simpler and it can be wired with a 20A breaker and Romex but from a labor point of view, that will still take some time from an electrician. It's not free.
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