donald
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:04 pm

OK, so I was talking about lithium phosphate and used the wrong abbreviation for you.

Rather than address that, could you find ANY Li cell at 25c per Wh?

JRP3
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:50 pm

donald wrote:OK, so I was talking about lithium phosphate and used the wrong abbreviation for you.


You also misrepresented the cycling characteristics of the chemistry, which has very high cycle life.

Rather than address that, could you find ANY Li cell at 25c per Wh?


I have no idea, and no interest in searching, since it's a pointless comparison as I mentioned. I probably could find some cheap Chinese cells that claim to meet those specs. Doesn't mean they do in real world use. For high volume purchasing of the best current lithium chemistry on the market the general consensus is that Tesla pays around $180/kwh, or 18c per Wh for their NCA cells, (LiNiCoAlO2). Cheap enough for you?

donald
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:19 pm

JRP3 wrote:You also misrepresented the cycling characteristics of the chemistry, which has very high cycle life.
That's not what I have heard in practice.

I have no idea, and no interest in searching, since it's a pointless comparison as I mentioned.
Strange. I thought that was what the discussion was about? If it's not about price, and you didn't seem to worry about weight, then what is the discussion about?

the general consensus is that Tesla pays around $180/kwh, or 18c per Wh for their NCA cells, (LiNiCoAlO2). Cheap enough for you?
I dare say that's what the general consensus is. But if *I* can buy NiMH at that sort of rate, what is that price translated into quantity?

I like the idea of small cell NCA. I'd tend to believe the chemistry is robust to cycling. But I don't rate its reliability for large packs.

The point is .... something you have missed .... my choice of what I want. You can carry on forcing me to accept what you say, and it's arguing apples for oranges because all I want is choice. Maybe I'll screw that up and pick the wrong battery type. OK. Then let me! Market should decide. Them's the rules of real capitalism.

JRP3
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:05 pm

You might as well complain that "the market" doesn't give you a choice of a lead acid EV too. The market has decided, on lithium. I expect that to hold true until something better comes along, and it won't be NiMH.

donald
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:39 pm

The market hasn't really decided on much just yet. EVs are far from mainstream nor a mature product.

mikesus
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:06 am

donald wrote:The market hasn't really decided on much just yet. EVs are far from mainstream nor a mature product.


Of course they have I mean just look at the standards for charging....


Errr, wait a second...

:D
2015 SV - #100 in 100 mile club!

kikngas
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Sat Dec 13, 2014 11:04 pm

So, how many 1mm thick layers could be woven in to the basic body of the car to expand the battery capacity without reducing interior space?

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2013/10/18/spiral-effect-volvo-structural-batteries-increase-fuel-economy

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RegGuheert
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:49 am

kikngas wrote:So, how many 1mm thick layers could be woven in to the basic body of the car to expand the battery capacity without reducing interior space?

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/2013/10/18/spiral-effect-volvo-structural-batteries-increase-fuel-economy
All I can think of when I think of putting super capacitors in the body panels of my car is that it would be like putting reactive armor on a tank. It might make for a spectacular crash!
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

JRP3
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:02 am

Yup, high voltage body panels don't seem like a good idea. In this case they are only talking about using them at 12V to replace the starting battery of an ICE.

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RegGuheert
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Re: All "Future" battery technology thread

Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:44 pm

JRP3 wrote:Yup, high voltage body panels don't seem like a good idea. In this case they are only talking about using them at 12V to replace the starting battery of an ICE.
Who said anything about high voltages? Ultracapacitors have *extremely* low impedance. As a result, they can dump their energy very quickly. Try to melt a dime with a NiMH battery and you will get a warm battery. Try it with an ultracapacitor at the same open circuit voltage and you will have a melted dime.

Simply put, it's a dumb idea to put stored energy on the outside of the vehicle. I doubt such an approach would be approved by most automotive safety agencies.
RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
2011 miles at purchase. 10K miles on Apr 14, 2013. 20K miles (55.7Ah) on Aug 7, 2014, 30K miles (52.0Ah) on Dec 30, 2015, 40K miles (49.8Ah) on Feb 8, 2017.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

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