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evnow
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 12:58 pm

AndyH wrote:Because that was one of the NEC excerpts ETEC presented to Canadian regulators when showing why L2 was hardwired.


That might explain why PSRC guidelines say non-hardwired L2 is illegal.
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:00 pm

More fuel for the fire - from the California energy safety paper http://www.energy.ca.gov/papers/98-09-23_KATELEY.PDF page 3:

"Level 1" EV charging employs cord & plug connected portable EV supply equipment (EVSE) that can be transported with an EV. This equipment is used specifically for EV charging and shall be rated at 120 VAC and 15A, and shall be compatible with the most commonly available grounded electrical outlet (NEMA 5-15R).

"Level 2" EV charging employs permanently wired EVSE that is operated at a fixed location. This equipment is used specifically for EV charging and is rated at less than or equal to 240 VAC, less than or equal to 60A, and less than or equal to 14.4 kW.

"Level 3" EV charging employs permanently wired EVSE that is operated at a fixed location. This equipment is used specifically for EV charging and is rated at greater than 14.4 kW.

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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:13 pm

garygid wrote:Strange, my pdf copy of 625 on scanned pages from the 2008 NEC has a Rating section 625.14 ... but it does NOT contain the language quoted above. Level 2 is apparently limited to 32 amps, requiring at least a 40-amp breaker, but there is NO mention of hard-wired.


Is that from PSRC site ?

Level 2. This is the primary and preferred method of
EV charging at both private and public facilities. It requires
special equipment and connection to an electric power sup-
ply dedicated to EV charging. The voltage of this connection
is either 240 volts or 208 volts. The maximum load is 32
amperes (7.7 kVAat 240 volts or 6.7 kVA at 208 volts). The
minimum circuit and overcurrent rating for this connection is
40 amperes (32 X 1.25 = 40 amperes) .. Electric vehicles
are treated as continuous loads. See 625:21 for sizing over-
current protection devices.
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:24 pm

Strangely, the 2008 NEC "new" 625.14 appears to limit
Level 1 to 12 amps maximum load, and
Level 2 to 32 amps max load.

However, 625.14 mentions EVSEs "rated at" 15 and 20 amps.

Possibly some incorrect wording in the newly-added 625.14?
See SOC/GID-Meter and CAN-Do Info
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:28 pm

So how come the 80A (allowed in SAE J1772) is not mentioned ? Is it because NEC needs to catch up to J1772 ? (And in the process ... it will allow portable Level 2 up to 40amps ? :) )

Edit: Belay that "request". I just re-read Andy's USAF & gov't experience / "head hurts" post above :lol:
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:38 pm

garygid wrote:Strange, my pdf copy of 625 on scanned pages from the 2008 NEC has a Rating section 625.14 ... but it does NOT contain the language quoted above. Level 2 is apparently limited to 32 amps, requiring at least a 40-amp breaker, but there is NO mention of hard-wired.

Most of this section 625.14 is "highlighted", probably indicating a change from previous versions of the NEC.

Is it possible your quote comes from something other than the 2008 NEC?


I told you exactly where the quotes came from, the dates of the document, and a URL to the doc.

Here's a copy of the 2008 NEC: http://www.esnips.com/doc/0d1d1744-6cd8-4c6f-9580-bf94ab28bda3/NEC-2008

625.14 says (page 532):
625.14 Rating. Electric vehicle supply equipment shall have sufficient rating to supply the load served. For the purposes of this article, electric vehicle charging loads shall be considered to be continuous loads.


http://www.energy.ca.gov/papers/98-09-23_KATELEY.PDF

The last change of note deals with how EVSE is installed. Earlier code versions did not clearly reflect the specifications outlined in the IWC Record of Consensus items shown in Table 1. EVSE is intended to be permanently installed, meaning the equipment is permanently fastened to a wall or bollard, and the wiring is hardwired in a junction box or some similar fashion. Level 1 EVSE is permitted to be cord and plug connected as long as it has ground-fault protection. The 1999 NEC® language specifies all EVSE is to be permanently connected and fastened in place except equipment rated 125 volts, 15 or 20 amperes which can be cord and plug connected. [Per NEC 625.13]


Reviewing the last few versions of the NEC and the analysis provided in the California paper, one is left with a clear view that EVSE is considered to be permanently mounted unless otherwise specified. Throughout even the 2008 NEC, when reference is made to a portable EVSE, it includes the full definition of portable, like this example from 625.18:
...shall not be required for portable cord-and-plug-connected electric vehicle supply equipment intended for connection to receptacle outlets rated at 125 volts, single phase, 15 and 20 amperes.

All EVSE is fixed except for that that's specifically portable - and the ONLY type of device that's specified as portable is..you guessed it...

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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 1:48 pm

Here's an ETEC doc prepared for Phoenix in early 2010.
http://www.theevproject.com/downloads/documents/Phoenix%20EV%20Deployment%20Guidelines%20V3.1.pdf

Page 15 shows a L1 EVSE diagram with all essential parts labeled:
From car to utility:
Battery/charger/inlet/connector/cord/CCID/plug/receptacle/utility 125V AC 15/20A

The higher voltage of Level 2 allows a much faster battery charge. Because of the higher voltage, Level 2 has a higher level of safety requirements than Level 1 under the National Electric Code (NEC), including the requirement that the connector and cord be hardwired to the control device and premises wiring...

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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 2:41 pm

LEAFer wrote:So how come the 80A (allowed in SAE J1772) is not mentioned ? Is it because NEC needs to catch up to J1772 ? (And in the process ... it will allow portable Level 2 up to 40amps ? :) )

Edit: Belay that "request". I just re-read Andy's USAF & gov't experience / "head hurts" post above :lol:


It's looking like there's a 'ripple effect'. A code is published; states accept, deny, and/or mangle it into their codes. In the mean time, the NFPA is still hearing suggested changes. Heaven knows if states make mid-course changes.

The ETEC docs presented to Canada and a number of states appear to be based on a pre-2008 NEC in spite of the mid-2009 thru 2010 report dates.

Good heavens. Google is NOT my friend. :evil:
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/AboutTheCodes/70/70-A2010-ROC.pdf

Here's how the NFPA changes the NEC. I have no idea when these might become part of the NEC.

Article 625 stuff starts mid-page 452.

Page 453, left column, mid-page RE: 625.13
Substantiation: EVSE meeting the requirements of 625.18, 625.19, and 625.29 can be cord-and-plug connected even with it is greater than 120 VAC.

The California paper makes is clear that installers use UL approved categories as the basis for how they can install devices. If one puts a cord on an EVSE and that EVSE doesn't specifically comply with 625.18, 625.19, and 625.29 then the device must be hardwired. I have no idea if the UL has a distinction between fixed and portable EVSE. :(

625.18 Interlock When we unplug from the car the terminals in the connector must de-energize...unless it's portable...125V..15A/20A...
625.19 is automatic disconnect/strain relief. Unless portable...125V...15/16A...
625.29 is definition of indoor site, mounting and ventilation requirements.

I'm done for now. This is outside my area of expertise and I need to digest some more. It would be very worthwhile if someone wanted to scan thru the NFPA changes and see if there are any changes to 625.18, .19, or .29.

Gary - this is your baby. I'm done. Its your turn - find out if any of these changes made it into the California code. Frankly, Scarlet...(you know the rest. I don't want a plug!)

Andy

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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:06 pm

Many "newer" documents, guidelines, etc. were apparently prepared from older standards, and, these various documents appear to be mostly "educational", even "guiding", but not the actual constraining "standards".

The fact still remains that the 2008 NEC standards appear to allow sufficiently-featured 32-amp Level 2 to be plugin. But, states (like CA) are often behind on "adopting" new NEC versions, and CA frequently "changes" a few things in the adoption.

Of course, after that, the local laws and building codes & practices may vary.

Finally, what gets final-inspection "approval" will often vary even from one inspector to another.

But, I think that we currently can have hope that a plug-in Level 2 EVSE is at least a possibility.

Who knows how or if we could build, sell, or use a 40, 50, or 80-amp Level 2 EVSE!

Andy,
You do really good work finding things, but I am a bit (OK, a lot) lazy. Thanks for your continued support and dedication, Gary
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Re: Marine grade Power Connectors

Wed Jul 14, 2010 3:22 pm

garygid wrote:Many "newer" documents, guidelines, etc. were apparently prepared from older standards, and, these various documents appear to be mostly "educational", even "guiding", but not the actual constraining "standards".


I don't know if I buy this. The standards are ultimately what the states or counties have on their books. It's pretty clear that the requirement that was in effect when the DOE studies were done, when the J1772 spec was updated, when ETEC...etc.

In government-document speak, the NEC is the law and defines the widest bounds unless further restricted by a state, county, city, or smaller jurisdiction. If the NEC allows something, a state can still remove it or further tighten it. If the NEC says a breaker can be 100A, then a state says it must be 90A, and a city says 80A, none of them become 'educational' - they all apply - but the end user is bound by the most restrictive requirement if they're in that jurisdiction.

garygid wrote:The fact still remains that the 2008 NEC standards appear to allow sufficiently-featured 32-amp Level 2 to be plugin. But, states (like CA) are often behind on "adopting" new NEC versions, and CA frequently "changes" a few things in the adoption.


Based on the past revisions of the NEC, the clarification that there's a culture of "it's assumed unless specifically written" in the NEC and in state codes, and the interpretation of the folks that got paid big bucks to put the code requirements into 'general public speak' (like the eTec papers referenced earlier), I cannot agree with this. The RULE in the NEC is that EVSE=Hardwired unless specifically stated (as they do in many paragraphs with the cord-on-plug...125V...etc. wording).

garygid wrote:Of course, after that, the local laws and building codes & practices may vary.

Finally, what gets final-inspection "approval" will often vary even from one inspector to another.

But, I think that we currently can have hope that a plug-in Level 2 EVSE is at least a possibility.

Who knows how or if we could build, sell, or use a 40, 50, or 80-amp Level 2 EVSE!


I have no idea how it would work or if it would work, but with the change in the NEC and the specific approval of the NFPA vote, some devices appear to be allowed to have plugs. Seems one can either wait for it to trickle down to their county, or print the page and sell the plan to their inspector.

Or say 'screw it' and let them install the EVSE, wave good-by, yank the thing off the wall, and attach a plug. :twisted:

garygid wrote:Andy,
You do really good work finding things, but I am a bit (OK, a lot) lazy. Thanks for your continued support and dedication, Gary


Thanks.

I knew there had to be logical progression and/or evolution. Cherry picking government docs is really not recommended. One really has to dig thru, find the trail, then follow it backward and forward before they can start to understand.

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