Range Matters!

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AndyH

Well-known member
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Apr 23, 2010
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Range Matters! But fear shouldn't! I'm fairly sure that 'range anxiety' was coined by someone that sells fuel... ;)

Most of my driving is on a Chinese electric scooter that tops out at 60mph and has a normal 40 mile range. I run a small business from home and most of my mailings go to the post office on the bike. If the box fits under the seat it will - otherwise I toss it in a backpack. I have a larger backpack that's perfect for trips to the grocery store.

The car gets brought to life once a week to keep it moving, to haul my son around, or to pick-up shipments from suppliers. I only need 12 miles range for 90% of my driving.

The Leaf wouldn't have been a good fit when I was on the road 30,000 miles each year, but it's more than enough today. I'll rent a car for a road trip, just as I rent a truck when I need one.

People talk about 'filling a tank' in 12 minutes. Too Long! It takes about 12 seconds to plug in and walk away. :D
 
Yep. The standard canard is:

Q: How long does it take your EV to recharge?
A: 15 seconds when I get home and 15 seconds when I leave.

It's a pithy response, but for all practical purposes, it's true. In your everyday life, how long your vehicle takes to charge doesn't affect you. It's only when you push the limits of the vehicle that it matters.
 
I think the Leaf's AV charging station can handle 35 amps, and be "programmed" to offer that to the car (when connected to a sufficient-capacity circuit).

But, apparently the Leaf will only draw 15 amps (approx.) in the 220/240v mode (maybe about 0.13C charge rate)
Any idea why?

In 480v (level 3) charging mode, the internal charger apparently draws around 100 amps (about 50kW), right?
Then, it would be charging the pack (48x4 cells, configured 96s2p = an approx. 360 volt pack at 66 aH = 24kWh) at about 2C (around 132 amps).
So, certainly the internal charger (and the battery pack) could easily handle the 240v 35a charging (about 0.3 C).

Is the 240v charging in the Japanese model limited to 15 amps?

Maybe, they feel there is no substantial benefit to getting the full charge all done during the Super Late Night rates?
 
Level 3 does not use an internal charger. It's DC. The internal charger is 3.3kW, to be doubled later.

IMHO, 3.3kW is rather low for level 2 charging, and Nissan really needs to up that. Even 6.6kW is rather meager. The Roadster handles up to 20kW.

I'd really love it to be able to handle 12kW (50A sustained @ 240V), or at least 9.6kW (40A sustained @ 240V). That'd let you max out 50A RV park sockets.

Of course, there is one thing that 3.3kW as a minimum lets you max out: a Quick220 for 15A sockets:

http://www.quick220.com/

Basically, it lets you combine two standard opposite-phase non-GFI 120V sockets into a 220V socket. There's a 15A version and a 20A version. The 3.3kW charger wouldn't let you fully utilize two 20A sockets, but it would let you fully utilize two 15A sockets.
 
KarenRei said:
Level 3 does not use an internal charger. It's DC. The internal charger is 3.3kW, to be doubled later.

IMHO, 3.3kW is rather low for level 2 charging, and Nissan really needs to up that. Even 6.6kW is rather meager. The Roadster handles up to 20kW.

I'd really love it to be able to handle 12kW (50A sustained @ 240V), or at least 9.6kW (40A sustained @ 240V). That'd let you max out 50A RV park sockets.

Of course, there is one thing that 3.3kW as a minimum lets you max out: a Quick220 for 15A sockets:

http://www.quick220.com/

Basically, it lets you combine two standard opposite-phase non-GFI 120V sockets into a 220V socket. There's a 15A version and a 20A version. The 3.3kW charger wouldn't let you fully utilize two 20A sockets, but it would let you fully utilize two 15A sockets.
Click to expand...



OK- Level three port + adaptor + PFC50 = 12Kw and in the trunk to go! Adjustable to be used on any circuit and with the dual outlet option up to 30A!
 
EVDRIVER said:
OK- Level three port + adaptor + PFC50 = 12Kw and in the trunk to go! Adjustable to be used on any circuit and with the dual outlet option up to 30A!
Click to expand...

Heh, not a bad idea, actually. I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but isn't the PFC50 like 40lbs? Definitely workable! For long RV park-hopping trips, that'd be a must.
 
EVDRIVER said:
KarenRei said:
Level 3 does not use an internal charger. It's DC. The internal charger is 3.3kW, to be doubled later.

IMHO, 3.3kW is rather low for level 2 charging, and Nissan really needs to up that. Even 6.6kW is rather meager. The Roadster handles up to 20kW.

I'd really love it to be able to handle 12kW (50A sustained @ 240V), or at least 9.6kW (40A sustained @ 240V). That'd let you max out 50A RV park sockets.

Of course, there is one thing that 3.3kW as a minimum lets you max out: a Quick220 for 15A sockets:

http://www.quick220.com/

Basically, it lets you combine two standard opposite-phase non-GFI 120V sockets into a 220V socket. There's a 15A version and a 20A version. The 3.3kW charger wouldn't let you fully utilize two 20A sockets, but it would let you fully utilize two 15A sockets.
Click to expand...
Tesla sells a universal adapter for the Roadster...9.6kW I think.
universal_chargetimes.gif

chargingSolutions_med_main4.jpg



OK- Level three port + adaptor + PFC50 = 12Kw and in the trunk to go! Adjustable to be used on any circuit and with the dual outlet option up to 30A!
Click to expand...
 
efusco said:
EVDRIVER said:
KarenRei said:
Level 3 does not use an internal charger. It's DC. The internal charger is 3.3kW, to be doubled later.

IMHO, 3.3kW is rather low for level 2 charging, and Nissan really needs to up that. Even 6.6kW is rather meager. The Roadster handles up to 20kW.

I'd really love it to be able to handle 12kW (50A sustained @ 240V), or at least 9.6kW (40A sustained @ 240V). That'd let you max out 50A RV park sockets.

Of course, there is one thing that 3.3kW as a minimum lets you max out: a Quick220 for 15A sockets:

http://www.quick220.com/

Basically, it lets you combine two standard opposite-phase non-GFI 120V sockets into a 220V socket. There's a 15A version and a 20A version. The 3.3kW charger wouldn't let you fully utilize two 20A sockets, but it would let you fully utilize two 15A sockets.
Click to expand...
Tesla sells a universal adapter for the Roadster...9.6kW I think.
universal_chargetimes.gif

chargingSolutions_med_main4.jpg



OK- Level three port + adaptor + PFC50 = 12Kw and in the trunk to go! Adjustable to be used on any circuit and with the dual outlet option up to 30A!
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Adaptors are easy to make but have nothing to do with charge power other than the restriction of the input and your charger. The Tesla charger is a different breed and not good for comparison here. A 3.3kw charger would be lame on the leaf for those with 240 and I hope it will end up at least double that for stage two.
 
KarenRei said:
EVDRIVER said:
OK- Level three port + adaptor + PFC50 = 12Kw and in the trunk to go! Adjustable to be used on any circuit and with the dual outlet option up to 30A!
Click to expand...

Heh, not a bad idea, actually. I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but isn't the PFC50 like 40lbs? Definitely workable! For long RV park-hopping trips, that'd be a must.
Click to expand...


Yes my thoughts exactly. If they only offer 3.3kw for 240 level two then this is going to be a must for me. It seems the level two charger may have another option or has not been clearly solidified, level two has been listed as 4-8 hours. IMO any factory EV with a pack this size should have at least 6kw charging on 240.
 
To show where I'm coming from, long ago, I was planning to take this trip:

http://www.rechargeamerica.net/trip/

To me, the trip itself can be a vacation ;) If we can take my parrot's travel cage and a couple of hiking backpacks and RV park-hop across the southwest for a couple weeks... well, that just sounds like a treat to me ;) And as a software developer, I can take my work with me.

The disadvantage to the Leaf vs. the Aptera is that since it consumes more energy per mile, that's a longer time spent charging at RV parks per mile even at the full output of the socket. So I'm definitely interested any aero kits I can get as well (such as fender skirts). I wasn't planning to spend as little on an EV as the Leaf costs (that's a darned impressive price point!), so I have some room for options and upgrades here.
 
Any thoughts on actual pack configuration? Starting with some fairly high-confidence 'knowns':

48 battery modules per pack
4-cells per module; 14.4V at 33Ah

We can arrange the pack into two independent parallel strings of 24 modules providing 345.6V and 33Ah (66Ah total). This is the approach taken by a number of earlier production EVs for a roughly 300V system.

I ask because...I'm thinking there may have to be some type of DC-DC between the Level III charge port and the pack because even if we fill the LiMn cells 100% we're still below the 400-440VDC Level III input.

Anyone have any Level III vehicle-side hardware experience?
 
KarenRei said:
Where are you getting your "fairly high confidence knowns"?
Click to expand...

Both of them come from Nissan and the battery manufacturer.

The thoughts on the possible parallel pack are borrowed from the way Hughes wired their US Electricar S10s and Prizm packs, and that 300V is a likely target for voltage.

Andy
 

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